YAHWEH creates evil, then drowns creation for it!

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21stCenturyIconoclast
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YAHWEH creates evil, then drowns creation for it!

Post #1

Post by 21stCenturyIconoclast »

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"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and I create evil, I the LORD do all these things." ( Isaiah 45:7)

"Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6)


The reason that the Hebrew Christian Yahweh god, of which is one of many gods in the Before Common Era, decides to drown the entire world accept Noah and family, is because his creation are evil and unworthy of existence (Genesis 6:5). The irony is that Yahweh created evil in the first place as shown above in the passages in question. Yahweh is also omniscient (1 John 3:20) , therefore he knew his creation would falter and he would have to kill them, therefore Christians and Jews worship a god that is Schizophrenic!

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." (Genesis 6:5-7)

Christians, can an innocent zygote or fetus ever be evil enough where they need to be destroyed within their mothers womb in the Great Flood, as your Yahweh caused abortions in this instance? Can an innocent baby really be evil where they need to die a horrible death by hopelessly treading water in Yahwehs flood for hours as they cry out in horror to their mothers; as their muscles burned due to large amounts of lactic acid production. Where once they finally give up, they went under, and held their breaths, where acidic carbon dioxide eroded their lungs until the unbearable pain forced them to inhale where there was no air for them to breathe. All the while, the ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god is watching.

Then the water brought into their little lungs robbed their little bodies of oxygen, causing them to go numb. As water violently rushed in and out of their little chests, it finally laid their heavily breathing and slowly dying bodies to the bottom of the ocean as the inhaled water caused their lungs to tear and bleed profusely. All the while, the ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god is watching.

As their blood supply dwindled, their innocent hearts slowly came to a halt. Even so, their brains continued to process information for another couple of minutes. They were patently aware that death was imminent, yet they could do nothing to prevent it. We can only imagine that their final thoughts would have been on what they did to deserve such horrific treatment and death. All the while, the ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god is watching.


When Christians understand why you dismiss all the other gods in the Before Common Era, then you will understand why I dismiss yours.


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Re: YAHWEH creates evil, then drowns creation for it!

Post #61

Post by ttruscott »

Zzyzx wrote:
ttruscott wrote: Making a wrong assumption about HIS motives does not prove HIS actions to be be a failure...gigo.
Genesis is quite clear about God's motives " killing wicked people. Perhaps it didn't know that the righteous family saved would produce wicked offspring.
Ahhh, so first proclaim the truth about GOD's motives (that you do not let anyone else make) then judge that motive to be unfulfilled, then castigate GOD for being a failure to fulfill HIS motives AND for a lack of insight into HIS creation following the old gigo, garbage in, garbage out principle.

HIS ACTION was to kill wicked people but that does NOT describe HIS motives as to why them at that time, that is, the reasons behind HIS killing them that day. Therefore you have provided nothing of substance...you have no proof HE did not know of the wickedness of those in Noah's family but base this concept upon your presumption that HE was trying to eradicate all wickedness which is proven false by Christian standards that HE does know the wickedness of men.Sharing your opinion is welcome. Believing that your idea has the weight of scripture is...what?
Being an irreverent sort, I suggest that if God couldn't figure out a less draconian way to combat evil or Satan he should have consulted Non-Theists who could suggest ways to use divine magic to solve the problem. His supposed solution didn't work anyway since evil still is rampant.

Ted wrote:It was not a solution at all but a prophecy.
I see. Now the God didn't intend to solve wickedness (other than temporarily) but intended the event as a prophesy.

Where does this stuff come from? Does the Bible SAY that the flood was a prophesy or did someone just make up that notion from their imagination?

As for a person or event in the Bible being a foreshadowing of a future fulfillment of the first is testified in and by the Bible itself and was so used by the early church onward to understand the OT. Paul in Romans 5.14 calls Adam "a type [] of the one who was to come" " i.e., a type of Christ. He contrasts Adam and Christ both in Romans 5 and in 1 Corinthians 15.

To assuage your ridicule from ignorance, please consider reading A Study of Biblical Types by WAYNE JACKSON available at https://www.christiancourier.com/articl ... l-typology.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: YAHWEH creates evil, then drowns creation for it!

Post #62

Post by 21stCenturyIconoclast »

[Replying to post 61 by ttruscott]


ttruscott,

YOUR QUOTE: "To assuage your ridicule from ignorance, please consider reading A Study of Biblical Types by WAYNE JACKSON available at.."

YOU WILL SOON RECEIVE A DIRECT WARNING FROM THE MODERATORS FOR MAKING A PERSONAL DISTASTEFUL REMARK TO ANOTHER MEMBER BY INFERRING THAT THEY'RE IGNORANT, IN HE SAME ALLEGED CONTEXT THAT HAS BEEN BROUGHT FORTH TOWARDS ME WHEN I CALLED A MEMBER GUILTY OF VIOLATING A CERTAIN BIBLICAL PASSAGE!




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Re: YAHWEH creates evil, then drowns creation for it!

Post #63

Post by ttruscott »

21stCenturyIconoclast wrote:
ttruscott wrote:
21stCenturyIconoclast wrote: ... lets create a thread regarding Noah's Ark, which is part and parcel to your ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god killing his creation.
Noah's Ark is part and parcel to our ever loving and forgiving Yahweh GOD JUDGING his creation for their crimes. Are you suggesting that the one who has the power and duty to judge evil not do so or have you successfully but secretly proven that those who died were in fact innocent of the alleged crimes?
YOUR QUOTE: "Noah's Ark is part and parcel to our ever loving and forgiving Yahweh GOD JUDGING his creation for their crimes."

Correct me if I am wrong with your Christian perspective here, so you're saying that Yahweh can kill innocent zygotes, fetus,' and babies that had absolutely nothing to do with any crimes against your brutal god concept, and in your eyes, this is okay?
Nowhere have I ever wrote the GOD kills the innocent nor that it is ok if He decides to kill innocents. Therefore you are wrong about me, my ideas and about the GOD of the bible...

- No innocents ever die or are facing hell or even get a hangnail.
- Suffering and death are therefore the signs of a previous sinfulness of that person.
- No person is sinful because of his creation either as sinful in himself or as sinful because of Adam.
- Only those who by their free will have chosen to rebel against GOD HIMself or against HIS goodness self create themselves as evil, some eternally evil having rejected salvation by their free will and some temporarily evil having accepted HIS promise of salvation before they chose to be or do evil in HIS sight.

Only sinners are conceived on earth and so no human born is innocent; your secular misguided emotionalism over a need to protect those with overlarge heads and eyes does not carry the theology.
21stCenturyIconoclast wrote: YOUR QUOTE: "Are you suggesting that the one who has the power and duty to judge evil not do so or have you successfully but secretly proven that those who died were in fact innocent of the alleged crimes?"

Only when you can tell me in a godly loving and forgiving manner that zygotes, fetus', and babies that do not know from right or wrong are guilty of said crimes against your Hebrew Christian god named Yahweh!
So you have no proof but emotionalism. Here is my supposition that a person who is a sinner being born a human doesn't contradict a loving and forgiving GOD:
1. GOD created everyone in his image before the creation of the physical universe with the ability to make free will decisions and everyone had the equal opportunity and ability to create their characters as eternally good (by accepting YHWH's claims to deity) or to make their characters eternally evil by rejecting HIS claims to deity.

2. Before the creation of the physical universe everyone created in HIS image did in fact choose either to accept YHWH as their GOD thus becoming HIS elect, or chose to eternally reject YHWH as their GOD and so changed their eternal natures to be demonic forever. Also some of HIS elect (under HIS promise of salvation) at this time chose to rebel against HIS command for the judgment of the damned and so became evil needing the judgment to be postponed until HIS promise of salvation is fulfilled in them, Matt 13:28 An enemy did this, he replied.
The servants asked him, Do you want us to go and pull them up?
29 No, he answered, because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.


3. To fulfill HIS promise of their salvation HE sows these sinners (and only sinners) into the earth Matt 13: 37-39 created to be the prison for all those who chose evil (and ONLY evil people) to keep them separate from polite society.

So every human is an ancient sinner under sentence from GOD for their evil and subject to suffering and death plus for those who have rejected HIS salvation by their free will, also damnation.
I get it ttruscott, you're as a parody pseudo-christian...
So because you do not understand my position you get to call me names??? Interesting take on the meaning of debate...


When Christians understand why you dismiss all the other gods in the Before Common Era, then you will understand why I dismiss yours.
No secret here - we all understand why people reject YHWH as GOD...
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: YAHWEH creates evil, then drowns creation for it!

Post #64

Post by 21stCenturyIconoclast »

PghPanther wrote: [Replying to 21stCenturyIconoclast]

Pretty intense description there......but well stated.

The simple fact is this. The people writing all this stuff down never thought they'd be scrutinized for what they wrote centuries later because what the claimed to be the actions of a God aren't very well thought out.

Also, the Bible being a canon of manuscripts is something the writers had no idea of ever happening so you will have one writers idea of the nature of God being different or in contrast with another writer in a different period of time and Christians over the centuries pulling their hair out of their heads in councils and arguments over how to get a synergy out of all of this.

Marco brought up a good point of a God changing its mind........there is a story in the old testament where Moses debated with God and convinced him not to destroy the children of Israel after they disobeyed him for the umpteenth time.......

A man argues and debates with God and wins??


PghPanther,

If marco argues this point, then he comes against biblical axioms where Yahweh does not lie, nor change his mind, to wit; "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" (Numbers 23:19)

Its all smoke and mirrors.



When Christians understand why you dismiss all the other gods in the Before Common Era, then you will understand why I dismiss yours.

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Re: YAHWEH creates evil, then drowns creation for it!

Post #65

Post by ttruscott »

21stCenturyIconoclast wrote:
ttruscott wrote: Since we know there were many morally bad things at the time HE pronounced everything HE created to be good, it is obvious that this good did not carry a moral connotation but was pronounced to be good for the purposes HE created, that is, the redemption of HIS sinful elect by their being sown into this world to live with the tares.
Huh? Your concept runs into a brick wall when Yahweh is omniscient! Therefore, he knew first hand that his creation was going to screw up in the future where he would have to drown them because Eve transgressed by committing the original sin (1 Timothy 2:14). Wow, with this modus operandi of Yahweh, what is this called, oh yeah, Yahweh was schizophrenic to say the least!
Make it up so you can burn it down eh? Oh well.

The definition of GOD's omniscience based upon pagan Greek ideas brought into the church by Augustine and taught by Aquinas are far from a brick wall or any wall at all but is just a thin bank of fog hiding the truth of the Biblical definition of HIS being all knowing from all who love the world.

The idea that HIS omniscience is from eternity to eternity and covers everything that can be known is a pagan Greek philosophical idea that crept into the Church and by its support of the blasphemy that GOD knew who would go to perdition before HE created them but created them anyway, is proven to be a blasphemous lie.

The Biblical definition:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works describe HIS creative decrees.

Therefore if HE did not decree into creation something, HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for our selves.

The Bible concludes that the theology you hate is made up and not HIS. All those verses you quote merely prove HE knows all about HIS creation since everything quoted is within creation but not one of them proves HE knows the results of our free will decisions before we do. As for knowing our thoughts on earth, we do not have a free will here on earth being enslaved to the addictive quality of evil as all sinners are and because HE has predetermined our lives to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption the best, easiest way possible.

So go tilt at the windmills in your fog, it has nothing to do with Christianity; your premise is wrong.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

21stCenturyIconoclast
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Re: YAHWEH creates evil, then drowns creation for it!

Post #66

Post by 21stCenturyIconoclast »

ttruscott wrote:
21stCenturyIconoclast wrote:
ttruscott wrote:
21stCenturyIconoclast wrote: ... lets create a thread regarding Noah's Ark, which is part and parcel to your ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god killing his creation.
Noah's Ark is part and parcel to our ever loving and forgiving Yahweh GOD JUDGING his creation for their crimes. Are you suggesting that the one who has the power and duty to judge evil not do so or have you successfully but secretly proven that those who died were in fact innocent of the alleged crimes?
YOUR QUOTE: "Noah's Ark is part and parcel to our ever loving and forgiving Yahweh GOD JUDGING his creation for their crimes."

Correct me if I am wrong with your Christian perspective here, so you're saying that Yahweh can kill innocent zygotes, fetus,' and babies that had absolutely nothing to do with any crimes against your brutal god concept, and in your eyes, this is okay?
Nowhere have I ever wrote the GOD kills the innocent nor that it is ok if He decides to kill innocents. Therefore you are wrong about me, my ideas and about the GOD of the bible...

- No innocents ever die or are facing hell or even get a hangnail.
- Suffering and death are therefore the signs of a previous sinfulness of that person.
- No person is sinful because of his creation either as sinful in himself or as sinful because of Adam.
- Only those who by their free will have chosen to rebel against GOD HIMself or against HIS goodness self create themselves as evil, some eternally evil having rejected salvation by their free will and some temporarily evil having accepted HIS promise of salvation before they chose to be or do evil in HIS sight.

Only sinners are conceived on earth and so no human born is innocent; your secular misguided emotionalism over a need to protect those with overlarge heads and eyes does not carry the theology.
21stCenturyIconoclast wrote: YOUR QUOTE: "Are you suggesting that the one who has the power and duty to judge evil not do so or have you successfully but secretly proven that those who died were in fact innocent of the alleged crimes?"

Only when you can tell me in a godly loving and forgiving manner that zygotes, fetus', and babies that do not know from right or wrong are guilty of said crimes against your Hebrew Christian god named Yahweh!
So you have no proof but emotionalism. Here is my supposition that a person who is a sinner being born a human doesn't contradict a loving and forgiving GOD:
1. GOD created everyone in his image before the creation of the physical universe with the ability to make free will decisions and everyone had the equal opportunity and ability to create their characters as eternally good (by accepting YHWH's claims to deity) or to make their characters eternally evil by rejecting HIS claims to deity.

2. Before the creation of the physical universe everyone created in HIS image did in fact choose either to accept YHWH as their GOD thus becoming HIS elect, or chose to eternally reject YHWH as their GOD and so changed their eternal natures to be demonic forever. Also some of HIS elect (under HIS promise of salvation) at this time chose to rebel against HIS command for the judgment of the damned and so became evil needing the judgment to be postponed until HIS promise of salvation is fulfilled in them, Matt 13:28 An enemy did this, he replied.
The servants asked him, Do you want us to go and pull them up?
29 No, he answered, because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.


3. To fulfill HIS promise of their salvation HE sows these sinners (and only sinners) into the earth Matt 13: 37-39 created to be the prison for all those who chose evil (and ONLY evil people) to keep them separate from polite society.

So every human is an ancient sinner under sentence from GOD for their evil and subject to suffering and death plus for those who have rejected HIS salvation by their free will, also damnation.
I get it ttruscott, you're as a parody pseudo-christian...
So because you do not understand my position you get to call me names??? Interesting take on the meaning of debate...


When Christians understand why you dismiss all the other gods in the Before Common Era, then you will understand why I dismiss yours.
No secret here - we all understand why people reject YHWH as GOD

ttruscott,

YOUR QUOTE: Noah's Ark is part and parcel to our ever loving and forgiving Yahweh GOD JUDGING his creation for their crimes. (Post 51 in this thread)

YOUR QUOTE: "Nowhere have I ever wrote the GOD kills the innocent nor that it is ok if He decides to kill innocents." (Post 63 in this thread)

Barring the fact that you equate Yahweh's Flood killings to being "ever loving and forgiving, which is so hard to comprehend a statement like this could be made, the two posts above most certainly contradict each other because in the first one you specifically state that Yahweh judged zygotes, fetus', and babies to crimes that they didn't even know they transgressed in the Great Flood killings. Then you follow up with your second post that specifically states that nowhere did you ever state that Yahweh kills the innocent, where in fact, this brutal serial killer god actually did perform this act as the outcome of killing zygotes, fetus' and babies, which are INNOCENT to any said crimes Yahweh inflicted upon them. 2+2=4, and oil and water don't mix, get it?

Listen, I can only take so much apologetic spin doctoring, therefore, I will not address your ever so wanting posts anymore. Furthermore, please, NEVER address any of my posts in the future so I don't have to see you once again bend over backwards for Yahweh to the point of breaking your back. You can thank me later.

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Ttrustcott, you're lucky that my days are numbered upon this site to begin with, because I just can't hold back when I come face to face with some of the most
insidious and disingenuous Christian apologetics that I've ever seen on any debate site, and you take the cake in being an apologetic extraordinaire in this venue without a doubt!!!

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When Christians understand why you dismiss all the other gods in the Before Common Era, then you will understand why I dismiss yours.

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Re: YAHWEH creates evil, then drowns creation for it!

Post #67

Post by ttruscott »

21stCenturyIconoclast wrote:
ttruscott,

YOUR QUOTE: Noah's Ark is part and parcel to our ever loving and forgiving Yahweh GOD JUDGING his creation for their crimes. (Post 51 in this thread)

YOUR QUOTE: "Nowhere have I ever wrote the GOD kills the innocent nor that it is ok if He decides to kill innocents." (Post 63 in this thread)

Barring the fact that you equate Yahweh's Flood killings to being "ever loving and forgiving, which is so hard to comprehend a statement like this could be made, the two posts above most certainly contradict each other because in the first one you specifically state that Yahweh judged zygotes, fetus', and babies to crimes that they didn't even know they transgressed in the Great Flood killings.


READ POST 63 AGAIN. HOW CAN I ANSWER SOMEONE SO OUT OF TOUCH WITH WHAT I WRITE?
21stCenturyIconoclast wrote:
^^^^ MODERATORS, HERE IS YOUR CHANCE TO BAN ME FOREVER! PLEASE, PUT ME OUT OF MY MISERY, THANK YOU!^^^^[/center]
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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