Is Jesus God ?!!

[mms20102]

As for all Christians its known by nature that Jesus is God yet there are many contradictions in the bible that can prove that Jesus is only a prophet .

In this debate i want every one who has a good knowledge to give the reasonable proofs that Jesus is god or at any point of the bible where Jesus said worship me .

At the same time i will be providing proofs from the bible that Jesus is not God but only a messenger

as for a start i will ask a question :

What Are The Qualification Of God ?!

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 27 by JLB32168]

So, why does Christ who is a GOD act like a HUMAN when it comes time to OBEY and not LIKE a GOD, instead?

Christ is not just God.

OK, I got that.. you said the conventional thing.. Christ is a human and a god at the same time. I think I got it.

He is also God and Adam#2.

Now, you LOST me. I'm sure that it makes perfect sense to you, but to me... nothing.

As Adam #2, he must undo what Adam #1 did.

Ok, FTSOFA... Christ is Adam NUMBER 2.

WHY now, MUST Adam number 2 undo what Adam number 1 do?
How does one precisely UNDO an action?

I'm lost even AFTER I granted that Christ is Adam #2. And I don't KNOW what you mean by Adam #2.

Is he a clone?

Christ’s divinity didn’t have to eat; however, he was also human. His humanity required food. The immaterial deity remained unchanging.

er... and what do the dietary needs of humans have to do with any of this? The human part has to eat and the God part doesn't?

The human part HAS TO OBEY.. and the God part DOESN'T, so who wins and why?

I still don't understand you.
I know you have TRIED to explain your position, but I'm still JUST as confused. Do you CLAIM that all of this makes sense to you?

Because if you just say that it really doesn't, I could accept that. It sure doesn't make sense to ME... So I say drop it.

As a GOD.. he has no CHOICE in the matter?... or... is this all SYMBOLIC or what... what is he TRYING TO PROVE?

If God was to affect a change in man, he had to become a man and do the exact opposite of what the first mad did.

God had to become a man and do the "opposite" of Adam.

The GOD who can LITERALLY do EVERYTHING "had to become a man and do the exact opposite of what the first man did?"

Who told God that he HAD to.... ?

Your answers are generating more questions than your original statements.
It's quite normal, theology is RICH.

I assume that God could have done things another way but that the way he did it accomplished the highest good.

Highest good.

I really need to take a note of that. I think it would make an excellent new thread. DOES the god of the Bible actually do everything "for the highest good"?

I might suppose that you would say yes.

I have a problem agreeing EVEN for the sake of your argument. It stretches my understanding of the Bible stories a BIT too much to sweep all the terrible things God is depicted as DOING or ORDERING done to say that it was all done "for the highest good".

I get it that you COULD see things that way. BUT... I can all too easily interpret God as evil, too. I have to tell you but when God drowns almost every living thing on the PLANET... I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt that he did so with the highest good in mind.

I don't think it was for the highest good of the DROWNED VICTIMS. And I can't even IMAGINE that all of them were so evil as to DESERVE and NEED to be drowned.

In the Bible, we have to take if for GRANTED that God drowns everyone on the planet save for one incestuous family led by a drunken nudist for the highest good.

but but but........but

1. We don't KNOW that every living thing on the planet HAD to be drowned
2. We don't even KNOW that every living thing on the planet DESERVED to be drowned.

I can't even verify that the story is true AT ALL.. and that's exactly my response to MOST biblical stories. I can't verify them..

So, what to do, what to do.

I guess when you don't know something, you ACCEPT it as true...
I don't do that.

When I don't know something, I say to myself and others I DON'T KNOW.

And I CERTAINLY do not say I BELIEVE something that I don't KNOW.

When I apply that method to the Bible, it makes an atheist out of me.

(and as an atheist, I have to ask how can we prove ANY OF THIS is true, by the way?)

Then why in the Hello should any atheist ask any theological question in the first place? Just simply cut to the chase as it done on each and every thread on this board by an atheist – say “There’s no credible evidence that stupid deities even exist so all of this discussion is equally stupid.�

Maybe not all atheists are as obnoxiously stupid as you can imagine.

Here's just a few reasons for asking you questions:

I want to learn. I want to learn how people think, how religious people think, what are their rationale, their theology, their logic, and so on. I develop critical thinking skills in here. I learn some CIVILITY... I need to learn that.

I practice just writing. And yes, my writing is improving with practice.

I also want to debate. I want to put my ideas to the test. One false move and I can be SHOT DOWN.. so I try to push that envelope.

I try to sway people to think more critically. I love the Socratic method, and want to learn how to frame my answers in a way that improves all of our thinking.

I believe that a world in which rationality is one of the highest standards of thinking and acting is highly desirable.

I am distraught over what I see is the problem of religious fanaticism. I want to promote clear and fair thinking.

I might have WRONG IDEAS.. and desire to be challenged on them. I like to talk to people, I like to have really really smart people who know more about something to actually take the time to TALK TO ME ABOUT IT.

I don't want to assume that I know everything.. so I have to ASK people what they actually think and why. I am interested in language, and am FASCINATED by human psychology, and sociology.

I think that religion really affects our CULTURES.. politically and otherwise. I think that religions are very IMPORTANT to humanity.. so I should understand it as best I can.

I'm also interested in philosophy and in science and in aesthetics. I have also felt VERY MANY TIMES IN MY LIFE something that I could call "spiritual" in nature, and want to understand that part of myself, as well.

I would LOVE to be able to reach a place where atheists and theists could AGREE more than they disagree. I disagree with MANY religious notions, such as morality and epistemology.

I think that discussing ideas is a very underrated and valuable activity in and of itself.

I love writing for the sake of it, I like to be deep and I like to be funny. I like other people to be deep and funny too. And sometimes, I get a real KICK out of what people write that IS at times inadvertently funny.

I believe that it's important for me to understand people in order for me to be able to empathize with their humanity. Debating with theists is NOTHING if not challenging.

I like untangling logic messes. People don't all write well or think well.

AND who knows? Maybe a theist will write something that can really knock my socks off.

AND, I like chocolate. Unrelated to asking you questions, but I like chocolate. So there.

Welcome to debates.

He is also ONTOLOGICALLY JOINED to BEING GOD. So, why does he act like a god in some circumstances, and not in others?

Because he can?? I don’t know. I don’t see why the question is important either.

If you don't want to be understood, then don't answer any questions.
Your choice.

You don't know.

Your ANSWER is important. I'm asking you to make sense out of your beliefs. God as Christ as Man just HAS to obey the part of himself that is god which is himself or not himself, or .. whatever it is you believe is happening.

Let's see for a second.

You say that Christ is a human.
AND a god.
And he is also ADAM #2

And he has to OBEY his OTHER god part ( of himself, I guess ) because.... he is also a human. AND, lets not forget the he HAS to die horribly in order for... some "salvationy" thing that I can't figure out.

Magic is necessary to .. to do what.. to forgive?

Someone has to PAY for that?... doesn't matter who? God HAS to kill a part of himself... in order to SAVE humans from GOD's wrath. By DYING... one human, in this case JESUS... somehow PAYS the balance sheet.

The crime was "getting to know you" or something.

Just sounds like weird nonsense to me. I don't know EITHER... I say scrap it. It's a right mess. And now you admit that you don't know.

Now what...

When I don't KNOW something, I don't pretend that I believe it. I just admit to my own ignorance.

WHY does Christ have to obey the Father part?.. I don't know.

Just does. We can make anything up at this point. I don't think that's part of the story. I'm going to make up that Christ is INSANE.

Humans are known for that.

Because you say so?

Why do you ask these questions if you don’t want the explanation of the theology? I’ll refer you to my third response.

Of COURSE I want the explanation of your theology.. what are you saying?
I ask because I want to KNOW....I'm asking to get your answers. But if I don't understand the answers, then I ask FURTHER questions, I don't just pretend to understand when I really don't.

So far, your answers are generating yet MORE questions. SORRY.
We're not getting to the bottom of anything SAVE for when you admitted that you don't know why Christ obeys God. I take that as a conversational victory for the two of us. Finally, there is something that we can agree on.

I hope to find more agreements, if you recall, that's one of the reasons I ask so many questions. I want to be able to AGREE with you as much as possible. Enough with the disagreements, right?

IF you mean that whatever SOME human does WE ALL ARE RESPONSIBLE as a HUMAN RACE. I think that's an absurd idea.

Okay. I’m not sure why I should care, but okay.

Hey, it's ok if you don't care what others think.
Nobody is forcing you to engage in a debate about anything at any time.

If you agree or disagree with my statement, please care enough to just say so one way or the other. Telling us that you don't care degrades your credibility.

Your statement wasn't clear as to your agreement.

Prove your "ORIGINAL SIN" . . .

I don’t believe in Original Sin. I’m Eastern Orthodox.

HUH?

So, what is Christ saving us from? ( unoriginal sin ? )
Sorry, but I'm not familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy.

In MY interpretation, Adam and Eve didn't INTRODUCE DEATH... it was God who did that.

You’re free to do that but death as a punishment, much less a punishment sent from God, isn’t in the text. You need to go back and read it again.

You mean this part?:

Genesis 3

" And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. "

I don't know about you, but that sounds like God is punishing to me.

Let's say ( FTSOTA ) that ALL of this is true... how did that happen... By MAGIC?

Yup.

Yeah, I have a problem believing in magic tales, though.
You know.. the fairy tales?

Why not do it another way? It must not have been the highest good. You don’t have to believe that. You can reject it as an atheist. After all, I reject the absolutely beyond idiotic notion that the universe/we are a product of random chance.

I reject that absolutely beyond idiotic notion too.
Who talks like that?

A creationist?

We would have been disengaged from the "permanence of death" without all of the HOOPLAH.. but why do believers need the hooplah? Don't they just need FAITH?

Now you’re just getting nasty so I stopped reading at the word “FAITH.�

So, in your way of thinking, asking if religious people just need faith is being NASTY?

I thought that using faith was really swell for religious people.

Thus far you've gotten answers to your question that seem to explain the theology well and you're gettin' mad since you're just ridiculing my rebuttal rather than actually engaging it.

Oh well - I can't be bothered.

But you seem to be bothered enough to ascribe "madness" to me.
Nice parting shot...

I don't think that answers all of my questions, though.
Oh well, you can't be bothered, I suppose.

[jgh7]

What I do is I imagine if God literally had a son. That son therefore inherits God's godly genetics of being all knowing, all-powerful, yada yada. And that son also has a deep psychic connection with God. They're still seperate beings though.

That's Jesus. He still says God is superior/above him which I don't quite understand. That would imply that God either has more power/knowledge/ or even goodness than Jesus.

So basically, Jesus to me is God's son who himself is practically God in status and traits.

[tigger2]

“What I do is I imagine if God literally had a son. That son therefore inherits God's godly genetics of being all knowing, all-powerful, yada yada. And that son also has a deep psychic connection with God. They're still seperate beings though.

“That's Jesus. He still says God is superior/above him which I don't quite understand. That would imply that God either has more power/knowledge/ or even goodness than Jesus.

“So basically, Jesus to me is God's son who himself is practically God in status and traits.�

………………………….

You are ignoring the fact that God created (made, begot, etc.) the angels whom he called “sons of God� and “gods.� Even some men are called by the same terms -
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... tudy.html .

Surely we don’t believe they have the same “godly genetics� (if there is such a thing) of their Father.

Angels and certain men anointed by God are called gods and sons of God in scripture. Although the Messiah is more important than they, it is extremely unlikely that he is equal in every sense to YHWH, the Father. That is why God is still superior to him.

[mms20102]

[Replying to Blastcat]

one thing that can totally satisfy you is that what u know about the bible ?

since u think there is no god how do you expect to know what god could be sorry brother but I guess this debate is the wrong one for you

after I read the comments I found people have agreement to the fact that jesus is not go yet I found one comment says no jesus is part of trinity so I said almost because of this

about the son of god if what do u expect getting from two cats of course not a dog
I was just building an opinion just the my brother said about fire

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 33 by tigger2]

now brother u got me confused again is jesus a true god or his father is the only god
simply because if have two gods this is another problem !

[Blastcat]

one thing that can totally satisfy you is that what u know about the bible ?

I know about the Bible.

since u think there is no god how do you expect to know what god could be sorry brother but I guess this debate is the wrong one for you

I can read the Bible stories and be told what others believe.
I don't have to think God is real to do so. I can form my own opinions.

after I read the comments I found people have agreement to the fact that jesus is not go yet I found one comment says no jesus is part of trinity so I said almost because of this

Yes, people have different opinions about if Jesus was God or not.

about the son of god if what do u expect getting from two cats of course not a dog
I was just building an opinion just the my brother said about fire

Sorry, I don't quite understand that part.

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 36 by Blastcat]

I was trying to say by typing fast that two cats can't produce a dog

for sure son of god must be god because if not then Jesus is only a prophet or not god's real son with the full meaning

yes brother you can read the bible but u can't get to know how god should be since u ignore the fact that god exists in general so any characteristic of god would seem to you as fairy tale unless u are seeking truly to find a god " which is I doubt " but iam sure u use logic to testify things and this may help you find the right god

I can held another debate does god exists ?! and this time you will be better at this one

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 20 by JLB32168]

so sir again god remade himself into human form to remove the sins of humanity why me " imagine iam Christian " can have done all sins on earth then go to heaven because god created a human to die for my own deeds ?

second thing is if jesus is part from real god why would jesus pray for god to save him from romans !! he could just make the sky rain stones from heavens and kill them and he could have punished the sinners and blessed the good people but he acted just like a normal man who has been given powers from his father to use to show people the right way to good

if jesus is an aspect of god so why god would sacrifice himself or at least his own son to help sinners ?!

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 22 by Elijah John]

sorry brother but u can search for the original text u will find it saying that god rested

another thing can god weep ? as for the shortest verse in the bible " Jesus wept " and more he ate food and drink with his disciples no god eats or drinks simply because the direct consequence is the call of nature its very simple if Jesus had the same build as a human and only had powers from his father " for now we will agree he is the true son of god " then we should look at the bible as it says there is prophets will come with miracles like jesus at this point I would build an opinion saying these are corrupted sons of god ! as they will have same qualifications as jesus exactly .

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 22 by Elijah John]

sorry brother but u can search for the original text u will find it saying that god rested

another thing can god weep ? as for the shortest verse in the bible " Jesus wept " and more he ate food and drink with his disciples no god eats or drinks simply because the direct consequence is the call of nature its very simple if Jesus had the same build as a human and only had powers from his father " for now we will agree he is the true son of god " then we should look at the bible as it says there is prophets will come with miracles like jesus at this point I would build an opinion saying these are corrupted sons of god ! as they will have same qualifications as jesus exactly .

Yes, I know the text said that "God rested" but that is not literal. It just means He finished Creation. WE rest. No Theologian, Jewish, Christian or Muslim teaches or believes that God needs rest.

And you don't have to convince me that Jesus is not God. We agree on that. The Father alone, the Creator, (YHVH, Allah) is God.

Please review my usergroups on the left-hand margin, and my "theological positions" in my signature area, and you will see at a glance that I do not believe that Jesus is God. ("Absolute Monotheist", "the real Jesus is not God", etc.)