Is Jesus God ?!!

[mms20102]

As for all Christians its known by nature that Jesus is God yet there are many contradictions in the bible that can prove that Jesus is only a prophet .

In this debate i want every one who has a good knowledge to give the reasonable proofs that Jesus is god or at any point of the bible where Jesus said worship me .

At the same time i will be providing proofs from the bible that Jesus is not God but only a messenger

as for a start i will ask a question :

What Are The Qualification Of God ?!

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to FiremanWes77]

Jesus is God because the NT says so in exactly the same way that Allah is God because the Qur'an says so, or there is an angel named Moroni Because the Book of Mormon says so. It's all a matter of exactly where one chooses to direct their personal gullibility. Or not.

[Zzyzx]

.

Your posing the theory that God doesn't

Correction: I do NOT take the position that ANY of the thousands of proposed “gods� do or do not exist. Instead, say that any of the thousands proposed MAY exist – awaiting verifiable evidence upon which to make an intelligent and reasoned decision.

Kindly refrain from misstating my position.

exist on a debate questioning whether Christ of the New Testament is declared God in the New Testament.

Does the OP actually limit discussion to the New Testament? Quotation?

So let me get this right, you want me to prove to you NOT using the bible that Christ is the God of the bible that you don't believe in?

Exactly. I and many others do NOT accept Bible tales as proving anything. Guidelines for this sub-forum clearly state that the Bible is no more authoritative than any other book.

That may be uncomfortable for those accustomed to pontificating in environments where the Bible is “trump card�. They may be more comfortable in Holy Huddle sub-forum.

You want me to bring to you physical evidence proven by science or human rationalization that Christ is God and not merely an ancient story? You don't ask for much do you.

I only ask for verifiable evidence that whatever is presented is true and accurate. Is that too much to ask?

If one cannot prove their case with something more substantial than company literature, they have a weak case.

The things I wrote were not a sermon. I can give you one if you like?

It would be prudent to consult Forum Rules regarding preaching. Those so inclined are encouraged to use Holy Huddle or Theology, Doctrine and Dogma sub-forums.

I used biblical evidence to prove Christ is God.

Biblical “evidence� proves nothing other than “the Bible says so� – which may be compelling in sermons and revival meetings, but is worthless in these debates.

I guess you prefer I use Google or an Encyclopedia to prove it?

I do not suggest what evidence anyone present in attempting to make their case. I do, however, ask that the evidence be verifiable as truthful and accurate. There is NO assurance that Bible tales are true and accurate descriptions of actual events and conversations that occurred in the real world.

The things I stated about God are EXACTLY what the bible says. Nothing out of context.

Yup, “the Bible says so� – if we were in church that might work. Here in debate it does not.

If you want to debate the existence of God do it somewhere else.

By what authority do you demand that anyone “do it somewhere else�?

This is an apologetic thread on the Deity of Christ,

Correction: The thread was posted by mms20102 who self-identifies as a Muslim (who is unlikely to be an Apologist for the claimed “deity of Christ�).

where you are to defend with biblical evidence that Christ is God.

That is NOT a requirement of the OP

You say to show you the evidence. Christ could descend from heaven right now, show up in your living room and perform whatever miracle your heart desired, you wouldn't believe it.

OH? Is that a claim of omniscience? Mind reading?

Kindly refrain from claiming knowledge of what I or anyone else would do or think or say. Try to focus on issues rather than making personal comments.

The bible says that on its own authority.

That may be impressive for Bible Believers – but is worthless in debate.

No amount of earthly authority would convince you.

Omniscience again?

Everyone wants to see a miracle from a God they don't believe in. The ENTIRE bible is a story proving that unless God intervenes you will never know him nor believe in Him. That's the whole story of the Old Testament and New.

What ancient preachers wrote as their opinions about God (or gods) is not binding on anyone who does not choose to accept their tales.

I don't have to show you evidence.

Forum Rules and Guidelines indicate that those who make statements are expected and required to provide evidence if challenged.

Its not my job to make you believe. I'm not here to prove God exists.

It should be everyone's “job� here to debate honorably, rationally, civilly, and in keeping with Forum Rules and Guidelines.

If I could do that I would be God, but I'm not. I'm just a messenger.

So you say – self-appointed, self-chosen “messenger�? There seem to be quite a few self-identified "messengers" -- and some "prophets" and an occasional "messiah".

And by the way, Atheist

Does omniscience indicate that I am an Atheist? Kindly read line 5 of my signature.

always start with the premises that God does not exist.

Atheism = “I do not believe in gods�. That does NOT equate to denial of existence of any or all of the thousands of proposed gods. SOME Atheists deny existence of gods, SOME do not. Denial is not required by “I don't believe� – which is VERY different than “do not exist�.

I, for one, clearly state “ANY of the thousands of gods worshiped, feared, loved, and fought over by humans MAY exist – awaiting verifiable evidence upon which to make an intelligent, reasoned decision which, if any, are more than products of human imagination.�

Notice that does not include denial. In fact, Apologists / Christians often deny the existence of thousands of “gods� while claiming that their favorite is “real�.

How about you explain to me how you can prove to me without rationalization, science only, that God does not exist? Prove without a shadow of a doubt, no opinions please, the God doesn't exist.

If I took the position that your favorite “God� did not exist I would be prepared to present evidence. However, I do not take that position – so attempting to shoehorn me into defending a position I do not take is a straw-man argument (and is dishonorable if done knowingly -- if it occurs after correction, that is done knowingly).

You can neither prove to me that God doesn't exist nor can you even tell me how the earth was formed and life came into existence without using theory and imagination.

I do not pretend to know how the Earth was formed or how life came into existence.

Those who claim to know that a favorite “God� was involved are expected and required to provide evidence. When all they can provide are unverifiable ancient tales, testimonials, and opinions they have NOT made their case.

Science has theories and nothing more.

Correction: Science is a METHOD of learning about the real world we inhabit. That method has produced useful information in the development of modern medicine, transportation, communication, etc.

And by the way it takes a LARGE amount of faith in human rationalization to believe the theories on how the earth was formed or life was created.

To which theories, specifically and exactly, do you refer?

Have I stated a position regarding origin of Earth or Life? If not why debate a straw-man argument (a position that I have not taken)?

Do you know that science CAN NOT explain why we even have eyes? The eye of any creature defies all evolution theory.

So say Creationists. Perhaps it would be prudent to actually study sciences before assuming that one knows what “science says� (or does or theorizes).

Science can only say that something crawling around on the earth determined that it needed to see something that it didn't even know was there. not only did it evolve and eye, but perfectly? You have to take a huge leap of faith and just believe that it formed itself from a single cell organism into this perfectly complex functioning animal.

That sound like preaching from a Creationist website.

You sir are nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Personal remarks are inappropriate. Try to debate issues, not personalities.

Present ideas for READERS to consider – the hundreds, thousands and tens of thousands who view these threads. Show them something more than emotional opinions and Bible quotations.

Straw man arguments that neither you or I can prove physically.

I have no need of straw-man arguments. I deal with what people ACTUALLY present (often line-by-line as may be apparent). I have no need to misrepresent anyone's positions or statements (and quote them verbatim as may be apparent) or attempt to shoehorn them into any position.

I am quite content allowing everyone to chose (and preferably state clearly) their own position and attempt to defend it – honorably, rationally, within Forum Rules and Guidelines. Care to join me in that?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 82 by Zzyzx]

FiremanWes77 wrote:

If you want to debate the existence of God do it somewhere else.

By what authority do you demand that anyone “do it somewhere else�? "

Perhaps the exchange is getting boring and we

have heard it all before?

[FiremanWes77]

[Replying to post 83 by Monta]

Ok, I have thought about it and I will try to take a different angle at this that might be more(doubtedly) more acceptable. I believe we can for the most part agree that Jesus walked the earth. There is enough secular historic evidence proving He lived and died the crucifixion death. Whether or not you agree on the said miracles performed by Christ, let's focus on the death of Christ. Christ died and said He would rise in 3 days. Now we have 3 factions involved in this, The followers of Christ, The Jews, and the Romans. All 3 we're directly affected by his death and resurrection.

Rome needed Christ dead. He declared himself to be a King. This was a threat to Rome. There was already tension between the Jews and Rome. The last thing Rome wanted was someone else causing more trouble for them. Jesus was rallying people together and causing unrest in Jeruselem. Rome needed Him dealt with.

Jews needed Christ dead. He undermined their authority. Not much else to say, they hated Him.

Believers, didn't want Him to die, They wanted Him to establish His kingdom and overthrow Roman authority.

After He died, it was crucial to all 3 parties what happened next. After 3 days the body was missing. As a believer, I say he resurrected. Jews and Romans say His body was stolen.

Rome and the Jews needed His body found. It would put an end to the Christian uprising and settle the matter. Neither party had anything to gain by His body missing and if they had the body they would have gladly produced it. They NEEDED the body.

Both accuse Christs followers of stealing the body. Why would they steal the body? If the believers found the body they would know that it was all a lie and there would be no reason to go forward with believing in Christ. He said He would rise from the grave, if he didn't, declare it false and save yourself the trouble. If He did rise, well then you have to believe. Historical evidence shows that 11 out of 12 of His deciples died a martyre death. If they had the body, why go through that for a lie. There is zero evedence that any of them ever recanted. They all died horrible deaths. That's just history, not fables.

Every believer in Christ has there view of why Christianity is real. I believe it all hinges on the point of, did He get up? Christ said the only sign that would be given this generation would be the sign of Jonah, 3 days in the belly of the earth, and then he would rise. Here's the question for you, did He get up?

Examine the resurrection. That's where the truth is.

[Monta]

[Replying to FiremanWes77]

"Examine the resurrection. That's where the truth is."

You bring up some interesting points one of them resurrection which is just as
important as many other parts of Jesus' life.

Resurrection fits in with the rest of the purpose of Christ's coming to earth:
to unite the Human with the Divine in Himself.

This is what was meant when He said: I am the way the truth and the life.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to FiremanWes77]

Examine the resurrection. That's where the truth is.

According to the followers of Jesus, Jesus not only returned to life, but subsequently flew away, off up into the clouds. What part of these claims provide even the slightest hint of "truth?" Far from resembling, "the truth," have you ever really even considered just how absurd these claims actually are?

[Monta]

[Replying to Tired of the Nonsense]

"According to the followers of Jesus, Jesus not only returned to life, but subsequently flew away, off up into the clouds. What part of these claims provide even the slightest hint of "truth?" Far from resembling, "the truth," have you ever really even considered just how absurd these claims actually are?"

Please read the Gospels before you claim to nonsense.

Jesus did not fly. The Bible says he was taken up to heaven.
Thousands of people who have had NDE/OBE never said they flew.

We constantly consider many absurd claims while not limiting our mind
to infinite possibilities by shutting it off in a box.

[Zzyzx]

.

Jesus did not fly. The Bible says he was taken up to heaven.

What, exactly, does "taken up to heaven" mean? Kindly describe the process and show how you know that it occurred.

Thousands of people who have had NDE/OBE never said they flew.

Is this to say that NDE/OBE are related to "resurrections" and "ascensions""? If so, show the connection.

We constantly consider many absurd claims while not limiting our mind
to infinite possibilities by shutting it off in a box.

Yes, many absurd claims are considered -- and after careful consideration are properly regarded as absurd.

[FiremanWes77]

[Replying to post 86 by Tired of the Nonsense]

It's called faith. Faith is believing in something you can't see or explain, and I do not expect you to get it. But then again you should get it. As agnostic or atheist you are cornered into Darwinism. There is no way to explain how all the creatures of the earth got here except Creationism or Darwinism. That's it, there's no other way. I think we can agree on that. So as an atheist you place your belief in evolution, yet there is not one ounce of archeological evidence proving evolution. It is a theory with no concrete evidence, yet it's what you are forced to believe whether you like it or not. Not only is evolution absurd, the way the earth was formed according to scientist in my opinion takes more faith than to believe in God, there's only theories. Do you know that the chances of creating the protein needed to begin life in total randomness is 10 to the 390th power. That takes A LOT of faith. My beliefs are no more crazier than yours. They are all unexplainable and take some form of faith. You'll never admit it, you'll just try and rationalize it, maybe saying you don't believe in those theories but like it or not that's the category your thrown into by denying God. You are forced to prove how you got here just like I am and you can't. You can only deduct from reasoning with no proof what so ever. Relying on fallible science trying its best to prove something that can never be proven, it can only theorize.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to Tired of the Nonsense]

"According to the followers of Jesus, Jesus not only returned to life, but subsequently flew away, off up into the clouds. What part of these claims provide even the slightest hint of "truth?" Far from resembling, "the truth," have you ever really even considered just how absurd these claims actually are?"

Please read the Gospels before you claim to nonsense.

Jesus did not fly. The Bible says he was taken up to heaven.
Thousands of people who have had NDE/OBE never said they flew.

We constantly consider many absurd claims while not limiting our mind
to infinite possibilities by shutting it off in a box.

Acts 1:
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

According to Acts, Jesus physically flew up into the sky while they watched and disappeared into the clouds. Acts does not suggest that he was flapping his arms at the time, this is true.