Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

[polonius]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

[marco]

[Replying to post 1022 by marco]

Again like always you just go farther with no references ... I have seen nothing

I have read the Life of Muhammad. Have you?

When we discuss the resurrection as a historical event then our opinion will be shaped by what we have been trained to accept. Clearly if we accept stories of magic and supernatural events and God interfering in human skirmishes then we are ready to accept events such as the resurrection. That is fine. You are being inconsistent in accepting wonderful tales about Muhammad while rejecting tales about Jesus. You want things to fit YOUR view. For you, evidence does not enter the question.

[Claire Evans]

But the ones that would be willing to drink, if shown the water, what about them? They’re not worth a second thought, just because they want to make sure the water is not stagnant?

Why can others believe and not need miracles? Why should someone thing they should be entitled to it. If makes me think that they don't want to make the effort to know Jesus and just have Him fall into their laps.

This happened all the time in the OT and even in the NT. Is there a reason that god found it ok then, but not now?

I would imagine it is because the faith has been established and Christians understand a relationship with God can happen without needing miracles.

Besides, you do admit that people’s knowledge and thought processes vary, right?

What one person may find credible, another may not.

Surely, god knows this.

Of course He knows this but when Jesus said, "Seek and you will find," it means one can truly find Him if they really want if they don't have any resistance.

I think there is a problem when one thinks they are special enough to think they must have a miracle. They think there is no other avenue.

Someone in posterity seeing wonderfully preserved documents would not do the same.

Correct, it would not have the same effect as having seen a miracle. But even one saved soul is a good thing, right?

It is completely unnecessary.

All souls should be saved. By any means necessary. Isn’t that the point of this?

I'm going to ask you, do you really believe that magically preserved documents would lead atheists to Jesus?

It would have for me. If you could show me that it is miraculous that the documents that should have withered away centuries ago are not despite all known physical laws, then yes.

How would you know that it is due to Jesus that those documents were preserved magically?

Um, are you arguing that another deity may have magically preserved documents about Jesus? That doesn’t seem to make sense.

I'm not saying about Jesus. You are arguing that there should be a magically preserved Jesus written by Himself. As you said, people have various ways of interpreting things.

Many people would do anything not to believe in Jesus so they would just say it is a hoax or it was done by a magician.

I’ve already said that this would not have happened in my case. God should know that.

And God knows that to truly know Him is to believe without seeing.

Truly, you don't need these things to believe. Why must you behave like a doubting Thomas?

I am a product of my education, background and biology. As a Catholic, I began to lose faith. Just about any sign would have kept me locked in. None ever came.

I'm not surprised you lost faith as a Catholic. The Catholic denomination is based on devil worship starting with the Vatican.

If there was a benevolent god, then I would have thought he might have made a little effort (as he has done in The Book) to keep me “saved�.

Self entitled again.

And, glad you asked, because here is the kicker. When I was a practicing Catholic, it would have, without a doubt, caused me to not leave the faith.

And that is my point.

Catholic? Oh dear. I don't think you had much of a desire to know Jesus.

Well now. Who is judging whom? Lol![/quote]

The desire to know Jesus would surpass any need to have a miracle. A person would take the long way to honing their faith.

I don’t think you know what it means to be a Catholic. My experience was all about Jesus.

Isn't Mary the most important in Catholicism?

It takes time to see how He works in one's life. Why not put in the effort inside of wanting to take shortcuts like seeing miracles?

I did put in an effort, as a Catholic. Now, I know better. No effort needed. It is all a fiction. However, the point was, I was making an effort. You see, if you want to invalidate Catholicism as a valid religion, I can easily say they can level the same charge at you, then all we are left with is, “Who is the True Christian�? And is there a real answer to that question?

You just said it yourself. No effort was needed to lose one's faith. In other words, you did not put in the effort to persist. Catholicism is based on pagan worship. That is not biblical.

The idea of submitting to God and doing His will is not appealing to most. It can mean the world will shun you.

I don’t know about the shunning part (I wouldn’t condone that), but if this is true, then he is dropping the ball if he really wants to keep people in his congregation.

I was a prime candidate that he let slip through his ethereal fingers.

Then Jesus would have to pretend all is pie in the sky for believers. It is not so. He lost many followers on the way but He couldn't pretend. Many people don't like the truth, so they just turn away. Should Jesus twist the truth around to gain followers?

You seem to be dodging somewhat my point. But yes, if every soul is important, yes.

But I’ll move on. What truth do you speak of? And, how does one know it is the truth?

I don't think Jesus should make exceptions for self entitled people.

I'll quote something from the Bible.

John 15:37-39

37“Then You are a king?� Pilate said. “You say that I am a king,� Jesus answered. “For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.� 38“What is truth?� Pilate asked. And having said this, he went out again to the Jews and told them, “I find no basis for a charge against Him. 39But it is your custom that I release to you one prisoner at the Passover. So then, do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?�…

What is this truth He speaks of? That He has been sent by the Father to die for our sins to reconcile us with God. The truth that people don't like is in Matthew 16:24

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

It is extremely difficult to deny oneself, as in stop living for themselves and their ambitions, to follow Jesus which requires being shunned by the world.

That is not the same as seeing Jesus in person doing the miracles. It was the apostles who performed miracles in the name of Jesus that earned converts.

To me, this is irrelevant. Having seen a miracle, more people are inclined to believe in god and Jesus. This seems un-debatable to me. Think of how many souls and converts Christianity could gain now if a couple of widely publicized miracles would happen on prime time TV, or YouTube?

No one's faith could then be exercised. The Pharisees took the same approach as you did and Jesus did not take the bait.

Well then, you have a dilemma. I was a believer and lost my faith. But I can guarantee you that I would not have left the faith had I seen a miracle.

Was my soul not worthy of a little help from the Holy Spirit? Or a miracle? It was not like a light switch, suddenly switched off. It was a gradual decline in faith. Any time, along that path of disbelief could have come a visit from the holy spirit, or having witnessed a divine action, I could have been swayed back into the flock, so to speak.

But you have a self of entitlement then.

I didn’t then. Surely god would have known that?

You may not have consciously thought so but, subconsciously, I believe very much so.

See what you did there? You claim to know what was in my subconscious (knowing very little of me) better than I do. That shows a bias for your preexisting answer. In my case, the bias would have been to stay in the faith I was brought up in. Nearly any reasonable excuse probably would have kept me there.

I came to this conclusion because the subconscious mind can be in conflict with with the conscious mind. Outwardly, you may have believed you may have been seeking Jesus, but subconsciously many not have because of your sense of entitlement.

So, you can (in good faith) believe me when I tell you there was no sense of entitlement. There was only faith (in god, Jesus and my parents), an inquisitive mind and eventually higher education.

Can you really tell me that there weren't any other factors that make your faith decline other than not getting the miracles you wanted.

So, can you consider the possibility that your assumption is wrong?

No. Do you consider you may be wrong?

Also, just to play this through, does a sense of entitlement really mean (to god) that I now leave the faith and end up in hell (or at least not in heaven)? Does that seem benevolent to you?

A person who puts themselves before God cannot be a disciple of Jesus. However, you assume you will go to hell. I believe there will come a day when we all will know the truth, the full truth, and then we must decide whether we want to repent and be with God, or reject Him which is hell.

We cannot always understand what God is doing.

That is a bigger problem for you then you admit, for if this is the case, how is god indistinguishable from chance?

I’m curious if you could respond to this point for me.

We have chances here or there. But when everything dovetails in the end and coincidences are constant, then there is something else going on.

Most of the time we cannot. Listen to God's small voice, not some thunderous boom in the sky.

When your faith declined, did you pray to God about it?

Of course.

And what response did you get that made you think it wasn't good enough?

I rec’d no response. If I did receive a response, I would not have left my faith.

You know, a response can come in the form of silence which is only revealed much later. That has been the case with me. Yet I didn't say, "Well, the response is not coming, I must else well move on." We cannot demand things of God. He has His own way and time of doing things. We must just have faith.

I'm left to wonder why miracle during the time of the OT and NT was a good thing then, but is a bad idea now. Why would this be the case?

It's not a bad idea. It's just that it is not needed now because the Holy Spirit is available to everyone.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit is not enough though. Christianity is, after all, on the decline. Especially in the US. So, maybe a few miracles are in order than?

You assume miracles would do the trick.

It would have for me, without a doubt.

You have a me, me, me attitude which I don't like.

Um, we are talking about me, aren’t we? This seems like you are purposely avoiding the subject.


I am telling you my scenario. I’m curious as to your explanation as to why god allowed a soul, primed and ready to be a good Catholic boy, to slip into the “evil� realm (according to the bible) of atheism.

How can we talk about my story, and I not refer to myself?

You are constantly telling me that you think you are special and need miracles. It's suddenly God's fault that He lost you. You do not think that maybe the problem lies with you. I didn't say that atheism is the evil realm, either.

After all, people aren't witnessing miracles by Jesus now. Christianity is on the decline because of a global agenda. Christianity is an enemy to those who control the world and it needs to be exterminated. Read this:

https://janegaffin.wordpress.com/2015/0 ... istianity/

Like I said, seems those miracles are needed now more than ever.

If miracles didn't make everyone believe back in Jesus' say, don't think it would be different now.

We’re going in circles. No, maybe not everyone, but some did. So there is a measure of success for saving souls by utilizing miracles. This is a fact, according to the bible. Miracles will save/bring back some.

Yeah, I think it is time to agree to disagree.

Then Jesus would be obliged to give miracles to all of us, not just you or one other person.

An omnipotent god would know who needs that extra push, and who wouldn’t, correct?

Then they are not persisting with their faith if they need an "extra push". No one can demand God for anything.

Then why was it necessary at all, in the bible (OT and NT) for the use of any miracles? He set the precedent didn’t he?

And, I am not demanding anything. I am asking why.

As I said, the Christian faith had yet to be established and thus miracles were needed. Instead we have the Holy Spirit that replaces miracles.

It seems as if you don't want to make any effort to know Jesus by changing one's life. Instead you want easy answers by demanding miracles.

Sure, you could say that, if you ignore the 1st 20+ years of my life as a practicing Catholic.

How about we don’t make that assumption?

I make that assumption because nothing Jesus did, which you believed once, was good enough for you.

Just as what Mohammad did once was equally not a good motivator to make me join Islam.

I really wouldn't know what is so appealing about Mohammed.

Being a practicing Christian can mean nothing. It doesn't necessarily make on a believer.

Again, I was a believer. I realize I can’t make you believe me. So, if you don’t believe me when I say I was a practicing BELIEVING Catholic then there is no point in us continuing this conversation.

-all the best

Absolutely. All the best.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 1010 by Claire Evans]

People who want supernatural things demonstrated to them want short cuts. They don't want to set out on a journey which takes a long time to refine their faith.

Again, false, in my case, Claire. I never wanted a shortcut.

Claire, I urge you to listen to me and to take on board what I write about myself. Please remember what I am saying, so that you NEVER again write the above, or anything like the above.
I WAS a Christian. I dedicated myself to God. I prayed to God. I was willing to 'set out on a journey'. I asked God to use me as his tool/agent/whatever, to tell me what to do.
OnceConvinced, if I recall correctly, says he spent DECADES as a fervent Christian. Decades, Claire. Does that sound like someone who wants a shortcut?
Whenever I see claims like the above from people like yourself Claire, that makes me even LESS likely to believe whatever it is you say about God than before you said it. It's because it reveals that you don't know anything about supernatural beings of any kind (surely they would have told you not to make that claim about shortcuts).

The reason I demand evidence of the supernatural is the EXACT same reason that I demand evidence that the house I'm buying is in good repair. I want to make sure, I don't want to be 'ripped off', or swindled. I don't want shortcuts when house-buying, I want to make sure.

Pastors can claim things all they like but it is not what they say that makes me a believer. They quote OT nonsense but that doesn't make me believe.

They quote NT as well, just so you know.

And you can get that. Start off by praying.

Takes a deep breath
Claire...before making suggestions like that, look at your opponent. Try looking at their usergroups. Clownboat (and myself) are members of 'I truly believed'.
The description of that group is

For those who, prior to losing their religious conviction, sacrificed for and lived their lives deeply devoted to their faith... even to their detriment.

How many times do we have to tell you that we have done that? We HAVE PRAYED. And NOTHING came of it. Nothing at all.

Why do you keep telling me this? I already told you what I believed the problem was yet you do not accept it. So let's just agree to disagree.

[Claire Evans]

As I said many times, through prayer. It is the only way to connect to the Holy Spirit.

Cool! That's how I did it too!

Do I still have the Holy Spirit, or does the more logical scenario ring true that there is not some Holy Spirit to have?

Devils can make people speak in tongues, too.

Please do not lay your superstitions on me. Show that Devils are real before you make claims about what they can or can't do. You are basically charging me with being demon possessed. I reject such a charge for something more logical and likely.

If you didn't even know that devils exist, or Satan himself, how on earth did you believe you could know the Holy Spirit? How can prayer help a non believer? I am not claiming you are demon possessed. I am saying is that speaking in tongues can also be done through devils.

Were you indoctrinated to believe that your conscience, or still small voice if you want to call it that is some spirit entity?

Then, my goodness, my life is just a bunch of coincidences then and just happen to be for my benefit in the long run.

Perhaps. However, I asked if you were indoctrinated to believe that your conscience, or still small voice if you want to call it that is some spirit entity? I was, were you?

The difference is that I never doubted the existence of Satan yet you had no clue. Indoctrination comes from beliefs shoved down people's throats usually with threats or promises of glory. That is what I respected about my mother. She taught we about Jesus but let me decide things on my own.

If spirits can interact with our physical reality, we could detect these interactions. Why don't we?

People have claimed to. I have experiences, so have other family members. We have seances and the like that are claimed to be true.

I have some ocean front property available for sale in Arizona. You interested?
You seem to fail to acknowledge all the claims and experineces from crazy people and people of other religions. Why are claims good enough when they are made about your preferred religion, but not good enough to believe other religious claims, nor claims about aliens, Bigfoot and Nelly?

My family is not crazy. In fact, during a session of glasie glasie, a South African term for using a glass instead of a ouija board, it revealed that my mother and father would married yet they weren't together at the time. They laughed and the demon got annoyed.

No sure what Nelly is but I believe in aliens and Big Foot.

This is actually not directed at you. Clownboat made the claim that he can speak in tongues and I said that is called glossolalia. In the Bible, speaking in tongues referred to speaking in languages not understood by the speaker.

And I still can, praise god! Woops, that one slipped.
Believe me when I tell you that I'm speaking in another language that I cannot understand, but the Holy Spirit and god can. (If we are to believe my pastors).

Okay, so how do you think you are able to speak in tongues? Maybe devils are responsible for that. And what exactly do your pastors claim?

It was a gift I received from the Holy Spirit. That is what we are told anyways, right?
I reject the claim that I have demons in me controlling my speech when I speak in tongues. Demons, spirits and what have you. Why such a propensity to believe such claims. Are you not skeptical at all?

So if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, then what do you think is responsible for it?

Have you heard of the story of Annelize Michel. She was demon possessed and could speak languages she didn't know.

And why should I believe you?

Either I'm making the noises, or a demon is controlling me, AND YOU GO WITH THE DEMON IDEA!?!?!?!?!?!?

In order to get to the bottom of this, we need to find out how you are speaking in tongues.

[marco]

I'm not surprised you lost faith as a Catholic. The Catholic denomination is based on devil worship starting with the Vatican.

May I respectfully correct your view here. In all my years as a Catholic I never worshipped the Devil. Nor wished to given that Catholic doctrine strongly condemns "Satan and all his works." I assume you have simply misunderstood some aspect of Catholicism. This type of remark simply cheapens any argument one would want to make.

Catholic? Oh dear. I don't think you had much of a desire to know Jesus.

Absurd. Catholics are as capable of knowing Jesus as any other Christian. Jesus himself would not have made this remark, which suggests imperiously there are no Catholics in heaven.

[KenRU]

Besides, you do admit that people’s knowledge and thought processes vary, right?

What one person may find credible, another may not.

Surely, god knows this.

Of course He knows this but when Jesus said, "Seek and you will find," it means one can truly find Him if they really want if they don't have any resistance.

I think there is a problem when one thinks they are special enough to think they must have a miracle. They think there is no other avenue.

You are missing my point. I am not saying I am “worthy� of special consideration. I am asking for logical consistency – which should be easy to spot with an omnipotent and benevolent deity.

So, if one seeks him but cannot find, it must be the fault of the seeker, right? You have to assume this (though you have no way of knowing this to be true).

This is circular logic.

Many people would do anything not to believe in Jesus so they would just say it is a hoax or it was done by a magician.

I’ve already said that this would not have happened in my case. God should know that.

And God knows that to truly know Him is to believe without seeing.

And yet, he used to be active all the time. I sought, but did not find. I guess in order for your faith to be “sound� it MUST be my fault. How convenient.

Truly, you don't need these things to believe. Why must you behave like a doubting Thomas?

I am a product of my education, background and biology. As a Catholic, I began to lose faith. Just about any sign would have kept me locked in. None ever came.

I'm not surprised you lost faith as a Catholic. The Catholic denomination is based on devil worship starting with the Vatican.

Lol! Devil worship? Really? So much for “Judge not lest ye be judged�, I guess.

I’d love to hear this rationale. Please, do illuminate me how Catholicism is equivalent to devil worship. Superstitious nonsense? Yes, I would agree. Homophobic? Yep, I’m on board.

Devil worship? Please do explain.

If there was a benevolent god, then I would have thought he might have made a little effort (as he has done in The Book) to keep me “saved�.

Self entitled again.

Maybe. But the fact remains. The logic (you employ to justify his absence) is inconsistent with the idea of a benevolent being. And it is inconsistent with the god character portrayed in the OT.

And, glad you asked, because here is the kicker. When I was a practicing Catholic, it would have, without a doubt, caused me to not leave the faith.

And that is my point.

Catholic? Oh dear. I don't think you had much of a desire to know Jesus.

Well now. Who is judging whom? Lol!

The desire to know Jesus would surpass any need to have a miracle. A person would take the long way to honing their faith.

How long? Even Mother Teresa had doubts throughout her long life.

I don’t think you know what it means to be a Catholic. My experience was all about Jesus.

Isn't Mary the most important in Catholicism?

She is important, but Jesus was the primary focus of my education.

It takes time to see how He works in one's life. Why not put in the effort inside of wanting to take shortcuts like seeing miracles?

I did put in an effort, as a Catholic. Now, I know better. No effort needed. It is all a fiction. However, the point was, I was making an effort. You see, if you want to invalidate Catholicism as a valid religion, I can easily say they can level the same charge at you, then all we are left with is, “Who is the True Christian�? And is there a real answer to that question?

You just said it yourself. No effort was needed to lose one's faith. In other words, you did not put in the effort to persist.

You misunderstand. I put in the effort and once my faith was lost, a clinical self-examination revealed why it was lost. And that required very little effort.

Catholicism is based on pagan worship.

Lol, biased much?

Pagan: a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.

Fact: As of 2010, there are nearly 1.1 billion Catholics, up from an estimated 291 million in 1910. Catholics comprise 50 percent of all Christians worldwide and 16 percent of the world's total population. Feb 19, 2013

From “The World's Catholic Population (Infographic) - Live Science�

By definition, you are wrong. Perhaps you meant something else?

That is not biblical.

Says you. They take the bible just as serious as you do.

No True Scotsman Fallacy comes to mind now.

I don't think Jesus should make exceptions for self entitled people.

So, self-entitled people should burn in hell for eternity?

That is not the same as seeing Jesus in person doing the miracles. It was the apostles who performed miracles in the name of Jesus that earned converts.

To me, this is irrelevant. Having seen a miracle, more people are inclined to believe in god and Jesus. This seems un-debatable to me. Think of how many souls and converts Christianity could gain now if a couple of widely publicized miracles would happen on prime time TV, or YouTube?

No one's faith could then be exercised. The Pharisees took the same approach as you did and Jesus did not take the bait.

Well then, you have a dilemma. I was a believer and lost my faith. But I can guarantee you that I would not have left the faith had I seen a miracle.

Was my soul not worthy of a little help from the Holy Spirit? Or a miracle? It was not like a light switch, suddenly switched off. It was a gradual decline in faith. Any time, along that path of disbelief could have come a visit from the holy spirit, or having witnessed a divine action, I could have been swayed back into the flock, so to speak.

But you have a self of entitlement then.

I didn’t then. Surely god would have known that?

You may not have consciously thought so but, subconsciously, I believe very much so.

See what you did there? You claim to know what was in my subconscious (knowing very little of me) better than I do. That shows a bias for your preexisting answer. In my case, the bias would have been to stay in the faith I was brought up in. Nearly any reasonable excuse probably would have kept me there.

I came to this conclusion because the subconscious mind can be in conflict with with the conscious mind. Outwardly, you may have believed you may have been seeking Jesus, but subconsciously many not have because of your sense of entitlement.

Ok, let me be very clear. When I was a Catholic, I did not have a sense of entitlement. You can choose to believe me or not. I know it suits your pre-conceived conclusion to believe this to be true, but it doesn’t make it true.

The idea of why wasn’t I helped came AFTER I lost my faith.

Believe it or not, it is up to you.

So, you can (in good faith) believe me when I tell you there was no sense of entitlement. There was only faith (in god, Jesus and my parents), an inquisitive mind and eventually higher education.

Can you really tell me that there weren't any other factors that make your faith decline other than not getting the miracles you wanted.

Wow. Are you even reading my posts? I did not seek any miracles while I was a believer.

I repeat: There was no sense of entitlement, nor desire to seek a miracle for my faith to be restored. I read I learned and I observed. My faith and beliefs succumbed to reason, logic, science and compassion.

After my faith was lost, it was only then that I questioned why it happened, and why wasn’t I helped.

So, can you consider the possibility that your assumption is wrong?

No. Do you consider you may be wrong?

Of course. That is why I read and learn more about my faith and all religions. I find it very unwise to think I can’t be wrong. You shouldn’t either.

We cannot always understand what God is doing.

That is a bigger problem for you then you admit, for if this is the case, how is god indistinguishable from chance?

I’m curious if you could respond to this point for me.

We have chances here or there. But when everything dovetails in the end and coincidences are constant, then there is something else going on.

I’d love to hear what coincidences are constant. To what are you referring here?

Most of the time we cannot. Listen to God's small voice, not some thunderous boom in the sky.

When your faith declined, did you pray to God about it?

Of course.

And what response did you get that made you think it wasn't good enough?

I rec’d no response. If I did receive a response, I would not have left my faith.

You know, a response can come in the form of silence which is only revealed much later.

Yes, no response from god sounds very much like no response from someone who isn’t there.

That has been the case with me. Yet I didn't say, "Well, the response is not coming, I must else well move on." We cannot demand things of God. He has His own way and time of doing things. We must just have faith.

So says every faith on earth. I was brought up Catholic, by virtue of my birth. As I imagine you are the same faith now that you were brought up in (if not, please tell me more). You say “have faith�, but what you really mean is “have faith in the religion you were brought up in�. Because, as you say above: “a response can come in the form of silence which is only revealed much later.�

That’s a mighty fine bit of circular reasoning you got there.

I'm left to wonder why miracle during the time of the OT and NT was a good thing then, but is a bad idea now. Why would this be the case?

It's not a bad idea. It's just that it is not needed now because the Holy Spirit is available to everyone.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit is not enough though. Christianity is, after all, on the decline. Especially in the US. So, maybe a few miracles are in order than?

You assume miracles would do the trick.

It would have for me, without a doubt.

You have a me, me, me attitude which I don't like.

Um, we are talking about me, aren’t we? This seems like you are purposely avoiding the subject.

I am telling you my scenario. I’m curious as to your explanation as to why god allowed a soul, primed and ready to be a good Catholic boy, to slip into the “evil� realm (according to the bible) of atheism.

How can we talk about my story, and I not refer to myself?

You are constantly telling me that you think you are special and need miracles.

Nope, not true. See above.

It's suddenly God's fault that He lost you.

No, what I am saying is that lost souls of otherwise good people are his responsibility.

You do not think that maybe the problem lies with you.

At the time I was a believer, it was most definitely not my fault.

I didn't say that atheism is the evil realm, either.

The bible certainly does.

Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

Do you believe that no atheist can do good?

It seems as if you don't want to make any effort to know Jesus by changing one's life. Instead you want easy answers by demanding miracles.

Sure, you could say that, if you ignore the 1st 20+ years of my life as a practicing Catholic.

How about we don’t make that assumption?

I make that assumption because nothing Jesus did, which you believed once, was good enough for you.

Just as what Mohammad did once was equally not a good motivator to make me join Islam.

I really wouldn't know what is so appealing about Mohammed.

That is because you were not brought up Islamic.


Thanks again for taking the time to respond to my long winded post. Your efforts are appreciated.

-all the best

[Clownboat]

As I said many times, through prayer. It is the only way to connect to the Holy Spirit.

Cool! That's how I did it too!

Do I still have the Holy Spirit, or does the more logical scenario ring true that there is not some Holy Spirit to have?

Devils can make people speak in tongues, too.

Please do not lay your superstitions on me. Show that Devils are real before you make claims about what they can or can't do. You are basically charging me with being demon possessed. I reject such a charge for something more logical and likely.

If you didn't even know that devils exist, or Satan himself, how on earth did you believe you could know the Holy Spirit? How can prayer help a non believer? I am not claiming you are demon possessed. I am saying is that speaking in tongues can also be done through devils.

Claire, not everyone is as gullible as others when they are offered up demons, fairies, leprechauns or what have you as explanations for things. Will you buy my ocean front property that I have for sale in Arizona, or would you do you due diligence and verify that what I'm saying is good? Why do you believe demon and angel claims so easily, are you a gullible person, are you a person that would prefer to not due the work to look in to claims, or is there another reason?

Now again, you make claims about devils. Show that you speak the truth or please cease and desist. This is a debate site, not an avenue for you to spew un-evidenced claims as if you are talking about reality.

Were you indoctrinated to believe that your conscience, or still small voice if you want to call it that is some spirit entity?

Then, my goodness, my life is just a bunch of coincidences then and just happen to be for my benefit in the long run.

Perhaps. However, I asked if you were indoctrinated to believe that your conscience, or still small voice if you want to call it that is some spirit entity? I was, were you?

The difference is that I never doubted the existence of Satan yet you had no clue.

Why do you continue to show poor reading comprehension? I believed in Satan, Angels and demons for 2 decades.
How many times must I and others tell you that we were true believers? I wanted to keep my beliefs, but perhaps I'm just not as gullible as others, or perhaps there is another mechanism at play. You tell me.

Indoctrination comes from beliefs shoved down people's throats usually with threats or promises of glory. That is what I respected about my mother. She taught we about Jesus but let me decide things on my own.

And you went with demons, angels, aliens and devils as the logical explanation? Why? What evidence made you believe such things? I was indoctrinated to believe in them, but when I realized that they could not be shown to be anything more than make believe, I started questioning them as answers. What's your excuse?

If spirits can interact with our physical reality, we could detect these interactions. Why don't we?

My family is not crazy.

Ok?

In fact, during a session of glasie glasie, a South African term for using a glass instead of a ouija board, it revealed that my mother and father would married yet they weren't together at the time. They laughed and the demon got annoyed.

No sure what Nelly is but I believe in aliens and Big Foot.

I didn't ask for more un-evidenced claims. I asked: Why are claims good enough when they are made about your preferred religion, but not good enough to believe other religious claims, nor claims about aliens, Bigfoot and Nelly?

Okay, so how do you think you are able to speak in tongues? Maybe devils are responsible for that. And what exactly do your pastors claim?

It was a gift I received from the Holy Spirit. That is what we are told anyways, right?
I reject the claim that I have demons in me controlling my speech when I speak in tongues. Demons, spirits and what have you. Why such a propensity to believe such claims. Are you not skeptical at all?

So if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, then what do you think is responsible for it?

The one making the action happen! Me Claire, I'm doing it, I'm in control. I no longer believe that it is some unknown language that only a god can understand or whatever you wish to offer as an explanation.
Seriously, are angels and demons better answers for sounds coming out of my mouth than me making the noises?!? You claim your family is not crazy, so why are angels and demons a better explanation?

Have you heard of the story of Annelize Michel. She was demon possessed and could speak languages she didn't know.

Seriously, I have ocean front property in Arizona for sale!

Later investigation determined that she was malnourished and dehydrated; her parents and the priests responsible were charged with negligent homicide. The case attracted media and public attention because of the Catholic Church's unusual decision to employ the 400-year-old ritual of exorcism, something that had been rarely seen since the 18th Century. The film The Exorcism of Emily Rose is loosely based on her story.

When Michel was sixteen, she experienced an epileptic seizure and was diagnosed with temporal lobe epilepsy. She was diagnosed as depressed and treated at a psychiatric hospital. By the time she was twenty, she had become intolerant of various religious objects, and began to hear voices.

The autopsy report stated the cause was malnutrition and dehydration because of being in a semi-starvation state for almost a year while the rites of exorcism were performed.[11] She weighed 30 kilograms (68 pounds), suffering broken knees due to continuous genuflections. She was unable to move without assistance, and was reported to have contracted pneumonia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel

Again, the most likely explanation in your eyes is demons and devils, not the dehydration and being malnourished or her mental health issues? Is it any surprise you found a religion to provide you with answers?

Either I'm making the noises, or a demon is controlling me, AND YOU GO WITH THE DEMON IDEA!?!?!?!?!?!?

In order to get to the bottom of this, we need to find out how you are speaking in tongues.

I have no desire to get to the bottom of this with you.
I already know you are more than willing to offer up un-evidenced claims as explanations.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1026 by Claire Evans]

I'm not surprised you lost faith as a Catholic. The Catholic denomination is based on devil worship starting with the Vatican.

Claire...that is a contradiction with what you have previously stated. Do you remember earlier discussions you had with myself, where I put forward the hypothesis that Satan is deceiving people into worshipping a Jesus, so as to lead people away from God?
Such as this thread?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=29032

In that thread and other conversations, you basically poo-poo'd the idea of Satan using Christianity, deceiving believers.
Now here you are saying Catholics are devil worshippers.
No. At least, that is NOT what Catholics actually believe. In our earlier conversations, I put forward the hypothesis that Jesus is a disguised Satan, but few to no Roman Catholics actually knowingly worship the Devil. In their minds, Jesus is the Son of God, one of the Trinity, and the pathway to God. In the mind of the average Roman Catholic, Jesus is the enemy of Satan.
So what of your contradiction? Is the Jesus of Roman Catholicism Satan in disguise? Is the Jesus of Roman Catholicism the same Jesus as Eastern Orthodox, Southern Baptism, etc, with those denominations focusing on different teachings and interpretations?

Isn't Mary the most important in Catholicism?

For someone who sounds so sure that Roman Catholics worship the Devil, why is this a question? To answer your question - no. She is venerated yes, but not the most important. Like pretty much all other denominations, Jesus is the focus of the religion.

You just said it yourself. No effort was needed to lose one's faith. In other words, you did not put in the effort to persist.

I will consider that a slap in the face to both KenRU and myself, and ask for an apology Claire. You know NOTHING of the amount of effort we put in. Oh wait...you do. We've both told you NUMEROUS times of the years we put in, the effort to learn and beleive. I think KenRU said he was in longer (not sure, care to help me out Ken? I stopped believing around age 13).

Catholicism is based on pagan worship. That is not biblical.

You know, that word is offensive. Pagan. It basically means someone who isn't part of the world's major religions.

3.
Disparaging and Offensive.
(in historical contexts) a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim; a heathen.
an irreligious or hedonistic person.
an uncivilized or unenlightened person.

You're now at the point of No True [strike]Scotsman[/strike] Christian, with your usage of that word.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

It is extremely difficult to deny oneself, as in stop living for themselves and their ambitions, to follow Jesus which requires being shunned by the world.

Again, pretending that you know what we did. I for one was actually shunned. I was mocked by my neighbours for being a devout believer. I still asked God to tell me what to do. If that ISN'T "stop living for themselves and their ambitions", I don't know what is.
Guess what? Still no appearance from God. Nothing at all.

I came to this conclusion because the subconscious mind can be in conflict with with the conscious mind. Outwardly, you may have believed you may have been seeking Jesus, but subconsciously many not have because of your sense of entitlement.

As KenRU stated, this is nothing more than your bias. Even should this claim of yours be true, you can NOT show it to be true. You have no evidence.

Can you really tell me that there weren't any other factors that make your faith decline other than not getting the miracles you wanted.

How about the nonsensical teachings found in the Bible? The numerous contradictions? The complete non-appearance of this God despite YEARS of praying and asking for guidance? I never asked for miracles like boat-loads of cash or servants or anything selfish - I asked for guidance, for help.

KenRU says

So, can you consider the possibility that your assumption is wrong?

Claire replies

No. Do you consider you may be wrong?

So you can't even imagine it? You can't even think of it? Or you won't?
Here's a little story about myself, Claire.
When a teenager, my father was accused by my older sister of sexual molestation. He was removed from the house. However, for reasons I won't get into, I believed him to be innocent.
However, I considered the possibility that I might be wrong. I asked myself what I would do if ever I thought him to be guilty.
In other words, unlike yourself, I didn't consider myself to have the truth. I believed what I believed, but I kept myself open to the possibility of what I believed to be wrong.
Guess what? Eventually, I learned that my father was in fact guilty all along. Unlike yourself, I didn't say "No, I won't/can't even consider it".

You know, a response can come in the form of silence which is only revealed much later. That has been the case with me. Yet I didn't say, "Well, the response is not coming, I must else well move on." We cannot demand things of God. He has His own way and time of doing things. We must just have faith.

Claire, if you sent me messages, dozens, hundreds, over the course of many years, only for me to never reply, would you be content with my silence? Would you still follow what I say, trust that I'll get back to you in my own time?
Saying "We must have faith" in this context is, in my eyes, literally the same as asking me to do something insane. The popular definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. In my eyes, telling us to pray, even though both KenRU and I only ever got silence, is telling us to continue doing something insane.
I don't ask that of you Claire. I don't ask you to do something that you have told me you previously did that didn't give you the results I speak of.

You are constantly telling me that you think you are special and need miracles.

Nope, I am telling you that I have lots of people like yourself saying stuff like pray to God and he will answer, only for me and KenRU to point out that we did this to no avail.
Also, why aren't we special? Doesn't God love me? Love all of us?

It's suddenly God's fault that He lost you.

If God actually is there, it most definitely would be his fault. He's not answering, despite supposedly having the means, motive and opportunity to do so.

You do not think that maybe the problem lies with you.

I have no reason to think so. All you've brought up is that Catholics are devil worshippers (not the case); that I was being egotistical (not the case). I mean...how is it egotistical to ask for a response? If I call you on the phone, am I being egotistical if I expect you to answer the call? This wasn't a snap decision on my part. It's not like I prayed once and then quit the religion upon no answer. No, I prayed hundreds of times, often to the point of tears. Several times I came to the conclusion that the fault must lie with myself, that the reason I'm not getting an answer is because I'm so horrible.
Imagine that, Claire. A child believing of themselves to be horrible, evil beings, simply because the god they pray to doesn't answer.

As I said, the Christian faith had yet to be established and thus miracles were needed. Instead we have the Holy Spirit that replaces miracles.

Not in my case. No Holy Spirit.

[KenRU]

You just said it yourself. No effort was needed to lose one's faith. In other words, you did not put in the effort to persist.

I will consider that a slap in the face to both KenRU and myself, and ask for an apology Claire. You know NOTHING of the amount of effort we put in. Oh wait...you do. We've both told you NUMEROUS times of the years we put in, the effort to learn and beleive. I think KenRU said he was in longer (not sure, care to help me out Ken? I stopped believing around age 13).

Hey, rikuoamero, hope all is well.

I stopped believing probably in my early twenties. But, I was a practicing Catholic, rec’d all of my sacraments, and a believer well into my late teens.

And no, I never thought god owed me anything.

I came to this conclusion because the subconscious mind can be in conflict with with the conscious mind. Outwardly, you may have believed you may have been seeking Jesus, but subconsciously many not have because of your sense of entitlement.

As KenRU stated, this is nothing more than your bias. Even should this claim of yours be true, you can NOT show it to be true. You have no evidence.

Exactly. Circular logic at its best.

This bias is even more evidenced because she asks the question, but doesn’t believe my answer.

Can you really tell me that there weren't any other factors that make your faith decline other than not getting the miracles you wanted.

How about the nonsensical teachings found in the Bible? The numerous contradictions? The complete non-appearance of this God despite YEARS of praying and asking for guidance? I never asked for miracles like boat-loads of cash or servants or anything selfish - I asked for guidance, for help.

KenRU says

So, can you consider the possibility that your assumption is wrong?

Claire replies

No. Do you consider you may be wrong?

So you can't even imagine it? You can't even think of it? Or you won't?

I am most eager for her response here, especially given that we both admit we could be wrong.

You know, a response can come in the form of silence which is only revealed much later. That has been the case with me. Yet I didn't say, "Well, the response is not coming, I must else well move on." We cannot demand things of God. He has His own way and time of doing things. We must just have faith.

Claire, if you sent me messages, dozens, hundreds, over the course of many years, only for me to never reply, would you be content with my silence? Would you still follow what I say, trust that I'll get back to you in my own time?
Saying "We must have faith" in this context is, in my eyes, literally the same as asking me to do something insane. The popular definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. In my eyes, telling us to pray, even though both KenRU and I only ever got silence, is telling us to continue doing something insane.
I don't ask that of you Claire. I don't ask you to do something that you have told me you previously did that didn't give you the results I speak of.

The fault must lie with us, rikuoamero, otherwise the fault would be with … GOD?

IMO, benevolence would include understanding and patience. None of those are applicable to a being who would punish a person for utilizing common sense, logic and reason (not to mention compassion and tolerance).

You are constantly telling me that you think you are special and need miracles.

Nope, I am telling you that I have lots of people like yourself saying stuff like pray to God and he will answer, only for me and KenRU to point out that we did this to no avail.
Also, why aren't we special? Doesn't God love me? Love all of us?

Great question. Apparently, he only loves us if we believe, but we can’t believe without the Holy Ghost, but we can’t get the Holy Ghost unless we believe. Hmm.

-all the best!

[Claire Evans]

Some people are just more skeptical than others. Just because they have a harder time then you when listening to the claims of a preacher, shaman, Imam, etc... does not mean they deserve to burn in a hell forever I wouldn't think.

Being gullible is not exactly having a relationship with God. Why would God favour a gullible person over a skeptic?

I don't think a true god would favor gullible people. Another strike against your god concept.

That's what I said. God would not favour a gullible person over a skeptic.

That is not why people burn in hell. It is the rejection of God that is known to a person that condemns a person to hell.

You don't know your god is real though. You have faith in ancient ignorant men, you call this knowing apparently, but I will not be fooled.
Either way, a just, loving all knowing god would not torture people for infinity for finite crimes. This would be like spanking your child for life because they took a cookie from the cookie jar. Asinine when we think about a parent doing it, but the gods, they get away with all sorts of absurdities being claimed about them.

You aren't me so how can you know for sure I don't know if my God is real? There would be no reason for me to believe anything unless I had the proof God exists that is provable to me. Why believe ancient people automatically?

No one goes to hell for finite crimes. They go to hell for crimes they are not repentant for. Unless you think it is reasonable to expect every unrepentant criminal to get off scot free.

Especially if they are willing to believe, but just can't find god claims to date to be credible. For these people, at least being shown that there is a supernatural realm would go a long way. For many, it would change the hypothetical destination for their soul.

And when Jesus showed supernatural natural powers, did it make all who witnessed it believers?

No, but you also cannot show that any supernatural claims made in the Bible ever happened. You can't even point to the supernatural in this day and age where most people are carrying a camera.

You can experience the evil side of the supernatural which would make itself very obvious but I don't suggest you do that.

Having a love of God is what makes people believe in Him.

There are reasons you're leaving out:
- Fear of eternal torture in hell.
- Indoctrination.
I find the idea absurd that you must love something before you can believe in it.

Fear of hell is not loving God nor is indoctrination. And when I say love for God makes one believe in Him, I don't mean the belief of God even though they aren't sure He exists. Believe also means trust.

People who want supernatural things demonstrated to them want short cuts.

Shame on you! Demonstrate that these kind of people are not just being skeptical. You know, examining things carefully in order to hold on to that which is good.
Person A hears about a god claim. They don't dare be skeptical, because Claire will accuse them of just wanting a short cut.

I am skeptical about things in the Bible but does that mean I ought to lose faith? Does it justify it? If one has to tell Person A how to know God exists, then they most likely would like some physical manifestation. Would they like to know the evidence of God by taking on the cross? If I had to say to Person A, abandon oneself and stamp out all ego, do you think they automatically would. Why are there so many Christians who don't understand things yet don't demand a physical sign? Why are you special?

They don't want to set out on a journey which takes a long time to refine their faith.

The opposite is true from what I see.
Take the origins of man for example. You can pick a religion, just about any religion and have your answer as to how and why we are here.
Or... dun dun dun. You can study different theories as to how man got here. This will require lots of time and effort, potentially even classroom time.
Religions are the easy route. No time or study needed, just faith in ignorant men and what they wrote down about things they believed.

I am not talking about learning about religion. I'm talking about a journey to refine their trust in God. Big difference between being religious and Christ committed.

Unfortunately, we know fraud after fraud is done in the name of religions. All knowing gods would know that some people will be faced with deciding if claims made my pastors, shamans and Imams are just more of the same.

Perhaps 'faith' is still the problem. I don't have the faith that you must have in order to believe the claims made by pastors, shamans nor Imams. However, being shown that there is a supernatural realm would go a long way.

Pastors can claim things all they like but it is not what they say that makes me a believer. They quote OT nonsense but that doesn't make me believe.

So.... again, being shown that there is a supernatural realm would in fact go a long way. I don't have the faith that you must have in order to believe the claims made by pastors, shamans nor Imams. And now we need to add demons and aliens to the mix.

Have you done your research into the existence of aliens? Or don't you think you need to study it like religious people ought to study different theories about how man got here?

I, unlike others will require more than a pastors, shamans or Imams word that a holy book is true.

And you can get that. Start off by praying.

It is silly to think that a born again, spirit filled, street evangelizing, drunk in the holy ghost Christian that wanted nothing more than to maintain his beliefs did not pray. I had many tear filled prayers to god before losing my beliefs.

Prayer is a good way to self brainwash is the conclusion I arrived at after 2 decades of it.

If you are a non believer then obviously you were never spirit filled. You thought you were.