Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

[polonius]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

[marco]

I don't know why people cannot appreciate that accepting the Holy Spirit means we can be taught as illustrated in the Bible.

I can accept inspiration comes from a variety of sources. It is not clear to me why the Holy Spirit should be given credit for, say, Einstein's ideas on relativity.




"Ruins of a 4000-year-old observatory discovered on a mountain in Macedonia reveal that the ancients tracked celestial movements from on high with remarkable precision. And in Peru, the descendants of the Incans continue an ancient pilgrimage tradition in order to commune with mountain spirits known as Apu. Could these gods have been extraterrestrials? Did they use remote mountain peaks to interact with early man? Might this explain why humans have been drawn to mountains for thousands of years." [/quote]

I am not opposed to such propositions. I cannot possibly rule them out and they do go a little way towards explaining the odd structure of pyramids. But it is not clear to me why aliens would descend on mountains - from where? I grant that physical means of transportation across stellar distances are out of the question, and I know that science proposes other means of travelling great distances. If we are in our intellectual infancy, who is to say that beings don't exist who are like gods to us?

If these are your lines of possibility, I've no objections either way. I have an open mind. My only problem is with dogmatic assertions.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 1063 by Clownboat]

How much actual work have you put in? More than a Google search? Again, I bring you back to my property in AZ.

Clownboat, how could you do this to me? You sold the property to me a few days ago, remember? I'm there right now, and I'm looooving it!
Hang on a sec (takes a short walk)...uhh, mate?

Where's the water? I thought you said it was ocean front? Is this false advertising?

Don't blame me, the water should be there.
You must not have enough faith!

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1063 by Clownboat]

How much actual work have you put in? More than a Google search? Again, I bring you back to my property in AZ.

Clownboat, how could you do this to me? You sold the property to me a few days ago, remember? I'm there right now, and I'm looooving it!
Hang on a sec (takes a short walk)...uhh, mate?

Where's the water? I thought you said it was ocean front? Is this false advertising?

Don't blame me, the water should be there.
You must not have enough faith!

Claire, are you still there? Can you pay attention to what has 'happened' here? I will tell you what happened.
Clownboat offered some ocean-front property in Arizona and I bought it. I then went there, looked around...only to find there was no water to be found. I complain to Clownboat, who says that the water is there, it should be there, that the reason I don't see any water is because of some failing of my character, namely, that I don't have enough faith.
Now, those with some knowledge of geography will know that Arizona is landlocked, but what if I didn't know that, and clearly Clownboat didn't tell me?

I want you to explain to me why I should not take Clownboat to court for false advertising. I want you to explain to me why I should believe Clownboat when he insists that it is indeed by the ocean.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1065 by marco]

If these are your lines of possibility, I've no objections either way. I have an open mind. My only problem is with dogmatic assertions.

Same here. ET visitations long ago would certainly go a long way to explaining just why ancient people believed certain things.
However, at this time, ET is just a hypothesis. We have no evidence that there are ETs travelling in spacecraft to Earth. Claire Evans offers us, and has offered in the past, things that she claims are evidence that are quite simply laughable. I still remember the video she offered in the past supposedly proving lizard people - it was a video shot by someone from their low resolution camera pointed at a low resolution TV, and the inevitable result of colour banding during a zoom up of someone's face was offered up as evidence of them having pointed teeth like lizards...thus lizard people.

[marco]

[Replying to post 1065 by marco]

If these are your lines of possibility, I've no objections either way. I have an open mind. My only problem is with dogmatic assertions.

Same here. ET visitations long ago would certainly go a long way to explaining just why ancient people believed certain things.

Astrophysicists have done some interesting calculations on travel to other galaxies. Here is a flavour:


The fact that we apparently live in an accelerating universe places limitations on where humans might visit. If the current energy density of the universe is dominated by a cosmological constant, a rocket could reach a galaxy observed today at a redshift of 1.7 on a one-way journey or merely 0.65 on a round trip. Unfortunately these maximal trips are impractical as they require an infinite proper time to traverse. However, calculating the rocket trajectory in detail shows that a rocketeer could nearly reach such galaxies within a lifetime (a long lifetime admittedly -- about 100 years). For less negative values of w the maximal redshift increases becoming infinite for w≥−1/3 .


For lesser mortals, we might with enough finance manage a visit to the Sea of Serenity. Such concepts would have been utterly ludicrous to Socrates, however wise he was. So what I do not know I don't readily dismiss. However, religion doesn't assist in our understanding but I think it puts barriers in the way. So the resurrection isn't the type of mysterious science of galaxy travel and alien visits; it would seem to be the stuff of superstition.

[Talishi]

The fact that we apparently live in an accelerating universe places limitations on where humans might visit. If the current energy density of the universe is dominated by a cosmological constant, a rocket could reach a galaxy observed today at a redshift of 1.7 on a one-way journey or merely 0.65 on a round trip. Unfortunately these maximal trips are impractical as they require an infinite proper time to traverse. However, calculating the rocket trajectory in detail shows that a rocketeer could nearly reach such galaxies within a lifetime (a long lifetime admittedly -- about 100 years). For less negative values of w the maximal redshift increases becoming infinite for w≥−1/3 .

I can't believe I'm reading this. Chemical rockets have a specific impulse of less than 400 seconds. This translates to a top delta-v (for any reasonable launch-to-burnout mass ratio) of 15-20 km/sec. Juno, our fastest probe ever, reached 70 km/sec with a gravity assist from both Earth and Jupiter. The nearest star can be reached on the order of tens of thousands of years. Another galaxy is way out of reach. Light cannot even reach Andromeda in a human lifetime, more like 2.5 million years.

[liamconnor]

Well we are on page 107 and somehow (with a 106 page history I certainly will not trace the steps) we are on astrophysics!


Rather than start another thread I give a summary of my case.


"Resurrection" is at theory that explains some basic historical facts; it itself is not by historical standards a fact. What are the facts? I give what numerous scholars representing a wide range of theological convictions have recognized as historical bedrock; my list is shortened and simplified.

1) A "Yeshua" lived in the first half of the 1st c. in Palestine.

2) This Yeshua was noted for his teaching, and was in his lifetime believed to be a healer and miracle-worker. That is, his actual contemporaries witnessed him performing acts which they interpreted as miraculous.

3) This Yeshua got himself in trouble with the Jewish authorities.

4) This Yeshua was crucifed under the authority of the Roman prefect Pontius Pilate.

5) This Yeshua was buried in a tomb provided by the aristocrat Joseph of Arimathea, late friday night, just before Sabbath.

6) Early Sunday morning, several women disciples arrived at the tomb to apply customary burial preparations; they discovered the tomb empty.

7) Within a little over a month, numerous disciples of Jesus believed that they had, collectively and privately, encountered and fellowshiped with their risen master.

8) A pharisee named Saul persecuted the Yeshua-movement. On his way to Damascus, he had an experience in which he believed that very same Yeshua appeared to him. This experience led to his conversion and participation in the ministry.


A literal resurrection is one explanation for the above. No doubt there are others. From my perspective, apart from religious prejudice or metaphysical convictions, the "literal resurrection" theory does a pretty good job getting in the data.

[Claire Evans]

Didn't say Catholics worshiped the devil. It is just that it has Satanism in it which Catholics obviously don't know about. It's not the Catholic Church per se, like individual ones, but the Vatican and Satanic rituals that they have made. Here is an example:

This is a rather stupid video. It is also one that sells hatred, so you can hardly expect niceness from it. It illustrates the FOUR points when a person makes the sign of the cross. This has nothing to do with a pentacle, a five-pointed star. The hand descends, from head to stomach then to shoulders and describes a perfect cross, which it is intended to do. To associate this devout practice with Satan is a piece of nastiness.

No one claimed the sign of the cross had anything to do with the five pointed star. In that video, did you see the young man touch his stomach? No, he touched his chest. And is the Archbishop who claims Satanism is practiced in the Vatican being hateful or just telling it like it is?

I'm not saying because he is Catholic that he didn't have a desire to know Jesus. I came to this opinion based on prior conversation. However, in general, Catholics believe Mary is more important than Jesus. She is called the "Mother of God". In fact, this suggests God, Himself, is an subordinate of Mary's.

Dear God! This is utter, utter nonsense. When I was eight I KNEW that Catholics do NOT worship Mary. Worship (latria) from where we get the word idolatry, is given to GOD ALONE. Catholic catechism. Hyperdulia is the honour - NOT worship - given to Mary for begetting Jesus. And they don't adore statues for, as the Catechism says: "they can neither see, nor hear nor help us."

If she is the Mother of God, then she is the supreme being and thus ought to be worshiped. And yes, statues of Mary are adored.

How can we discuss the resurrection properly when we don't check on the most basic teachings of a Christian religion? If you are going to discard or demean a set of beliefs, it is incumbent on you to find out from truthful people what those beliefs are.

Catholics believe that Jesus rose "on the third day," and later "ascended into heaven" whence he will come again to "judge the living and the dead." Does that differ greatly from your own view of the resurrection, etc.?

I know what their beliefs are. Catholics have the basic tenets of Christianity but there is paganism in it which cannot be denied. Since where are their references to Easter eggs in the Bible?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

Claire Evans wrote:

I'm not surprised you lost faith as a Catholic. The Catholic denomination is based on devil worship starting with the Vatican.

RESPONSE: Really? And what actual evidence do you have to support your statement? Or is it just a feeling?

Chief exorcist says Devil is in Vatican
The Devil is lurking in the very heart of the Roman Catholic Church, the Vatican's chief exorcist claimed on Wednesday.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... tican.html

[marco]

The fact that we apparently live in an accelerating universe places limitations on where humans might visit. If the current energy density of the universe is dominated by a cosmological constant, a rocket could reach a galaxy observed today at a redshift of 1.7 on a one-way journey or merely 0.65 on a round trip. Unfortunately these maximal trips are impractical as they require an infinite proper time to traverse. However, calculating the rocket trajectory in detail shows that a rocketeer could nearly reach such galaxies within a lifetime (a long lifetime admittedly -- about 100 years). For less negative values of w the maximal redshift increases becoming infinite for w≥−1/3 .

I can't believe I'm reading this. Chemical rockets have a specific impulse of less than 400 seconds. This translates to a top delta-v (for any reasonable launch-to-burnout mass ratio) of 15-20 km/sec. Juno, our fastest probe ever, reached 70 km/sec with a gravity assist from both Earth and Jupiter. The nearest star can be reached on the order of tens of thousands of years. Another galaxy is way out of reach. Light cannot even reach Andromeda in a human lifetime, more like 2.5 million years.

Believe it. But it has nothing to do with me. The journal reference is: Phys.Rev.D72:107302,2005

Further details were published and some Australian astronomers attempted to correct the time downwards, but they had not taken deceleration on approach to the destination into consideration. If you are an astrophysicist then you can easily check, since the work is current.

I mentioned it simply to show that the supernatural isn't too far away from what we are working on now. Resurrections may be on offer at some point, but they weren't 2000 years ago.