What is a soul?

Skrill · Post by **Skrill** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:54 pm

It is fact that the Physical Brain controls memories, personality. Thousands of other actions are all controlled by our nervous system, which is managed by our brains.

Therefore, what consensus is there for any evidence for a soul(s)? As the existence of the soul is very central to any belief or religion.

(my first post

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hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:00 pm

[Replying to post 135 by onewithhim]

I think you missed one of my key points. The Greeks enshrined teh immune and the immutable. The early church adopted Hellenic metaphysics and standards of perfection and then did likewise. Hence, the traditional Christian definition of God as he is in his own nature is that God is void of body, parts, passions compassion, wh9olly immutable, etc. On compassion, you might want to look at St. Anselm of Canterbury and also St. Thomas Aquinas. Anselm argued that God is void of compassion because God has no passion (emotion) to begin with. Thomas insisted that God's love is minus any real degree of sympathy or empathy.

The Bible does affirm the omnipresence of God in passages such as Jer. (sorry for the type) 23:23-24 and I Cor. 15:28. Also, if we take the Incarnation as a tr5ue revelation of God, then it reveals God's general MO with creation, which means God is incarnate throughout the whole universe.

You might want to reread the NT accounts of teh visitations by the resurrected Christ. According to LK. 24 and Jn. 20, he definitely does have a body, hands and feet, can be touched, and can even get hungry. The fact that he can appear and disappear through walls does not mean he is some sort of immaterial entity. If strictly speaking, Christ were an immaterial entity, then he would have no extension, occupy no space, extension being the basic characteristic of matter.

God's Spirit is thought of as breath, in Scripture, and breath is something very physical.

In Scripture, the H9oly Spirit is God present among us, not some impersonal power sent from God. Remember, god is Spirit and holy. The Spirit, then is God.

The biblical writers attribute just about every major body part to God, which suggests they viewed God as a physical entity. Scripture is nondualistic. there is no mind-body or spirit-matter dualism in Scripture. Mind and matter are one. The mind-body dualism came from the Greeks, where some extensionless being, a soul, got trapped in the evil world of matter. Hence, there is nothing in Scripture that does not have a physical dimension. The fact Paul talks about spiritual bodies does not mean he has in mind something wholly immaterial, just a different kind of matter.

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:02 pm

[Replying to post 140 by onewithhim]

Yes, true. it is also used to mean one's mind and also used interchangeably with spirit.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:07 pm

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to JehovahsWitness]

In the Bible, soul and spirit have more than one meaning. They are not exact, precise terms. For example, soul often indicates the whole person, a living creature, which is described as a "living soul" in Scripture. Where the terms soul and spirit considerably overlap is that the soul is seen as the seat of emotions, as in Gen. 42:21, Deut. 28:65. The same is true of the spirit, as we find in Isa. 19:14, Num. 14:24. Also, the spirit denotes our innermost thoughts, as in Prov. 16:20, Mk. 2:8, Jn. 11:33, I Cor. 2:11. The spirit also can denote deep insights and wisdom. Hence, prophets are moved by the "spirit of wisdom," as in Num. 11:17. At death, the spirit is said to be returned to God, and the soul is also said to be sved, as in Ps. 116:14, 2 Sam. 4:9. In much of the NT, the spirit is seen as denoting the "higher side" of the soul, the yearning for communion with God. So, bottom line, they are not separate entities in Scripture.
Now, I don't know what Bible you are using. If you are using the New World Translation, from the WatchTower Society, sorry, but that is a totally bogus translation and therefore apt to lead to serious misconceptions.

We have already posted the various meanings of "spirit." The mistake that the majority of people make is interchanging "spirit" for "soul." You didn't state your scripture that mentions that the "spirit returns to God." That is Ecclesiastes 12:7. It might be a good idea to check it out. The "spirit" that returns is the breath of life, and focuses on God's ability and desire to keep that person alive (or bring him back)---then and also in the future. It does not indicate that some conscious part of a person survives death.

The NWT is not "bogus," and you'd know that if you did some research. It is considered by some scholars as the best translation available (such as Professor Jason BeDuhn of Northern Arizona University, in Flagstaff). Also, if you did the work of comparing the NWT with the original languages, you would see that it is very closely aligned to them.

The fact that you can't plainly distinguish "Soul" from "Spirit" shows me that you are relying on seriously marred translations.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:10 pm

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 131 by JehovahsWitness]

I am simply saying Paul affirms we live on, in a physical, embodied form, after we die.

Are you refering to the passage you admitted you didn't understand?

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:16 pm

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Ps. 116 and also 86 make it clear that the soul is the object of salvation by God, who can deliver it from Sheole. Dan. 12:2 also speaks of God delivering the faithful to eternal life. And, of course, Paul, in I Cor. 15, speaks of eternal life. So, yes, in teh Bible, souls do live on beyond the grace. However, the Bible does not give much detail. In many passages, Sheole is neither a heaven or a hell, jus ta place of sleepy entities. Other passages speak of a more glorious future. Either way, souls live on beyond the grave, according to the Bible.

Also, I gave you some strong examples where soul and spirit overlap in Scripture, which you have yet to address.

No, they do not live on immediately after death, and you have not shown that they do. Yes, souls will be saved, and many brought back from the dead at the time of the Resurrection, which will occur "at the last day." (John 6:44) Eternal life will be given to all souls who choose to stand with Jehovah and Jesus at the end of the Millennial Reign. They will be given eternal life on this planet, with physical bodies.

"Sheol" is the exact equivalent of "Hades" in the Greek. Where these terms appear, they ALWAYS mean "the grave."

Your examples were not "strong," and you have ignored just about everything that has been posted by Jehovah'sWitness and myself about "ruach" and "nephesh."

tigger2 · Post by **tigger2** » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:23 pm

[Replying to onewithhim] post 140.

The word is "nephesh" in the cases where the cited versions render the word for "life." Nephesh = soul.

Well said. I agree with you, but I would like to point out that "soul/life" in NT Greek is psyche (nephesh is the Hebrew, as you know).

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:24 pm

Monta wrote: [Replying to post 86 by hoghead1]

"In Scripture, everything has a physical dimension, including God, to whom is attributed about every body part, hands, eyes, feet, etc. Hnece, the risen Christ also has a body. Mind and matter are one in Scripture. Survival beyond the grace is survival in a physical form."

That God has hands, eyes etc is mentioned in the scripture and yes as to function, not shape.

Survival of the physical form is not scriptural.
Flesh and blood can not enter the spiritual; it's called spiritual because it is not physical.

You are correct that the physical body cannot survive in the spirit realm. But God created humans with physical bodies to live on this earth forever. (Isaiah 45:18) It is HERE that humans were created to live, not in heaven. Why do you think that God created humans to eventually wind up in heaven? He could've just made everyone a spirit person.

Survival of the physical form IS scriptural. That is how Jesus will resurrect people during his Millennial Reign. (John 5:28) He will bring all those who are dead back to life, as physical people (in the "last day").

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:28 pm

[Replying to post 143 by onewithhim]

FYI: I've done some serious research on the NWT, which is precisely why I say it is bogus. For one thing, the translators are kept secret. this is the only translation of teh Bible I have ever found where nobody wants to reveal who the translators were. More importantly, the text, key points, has been unduly corrupted to suit the biases of teh WatchTower Society. For example, in the prologue to JN. the indefinite article "a" is inserted, so that the text is mistranslated as "and the Word was a God." The rules of Greek grammar rule out the use of teh indefinite article here, which is why it is absent in the solid, standard translations. The reason why the WatchTower Society want the "a" in there is that this will support their anti-Trinitarian bias. Also, in passages that speak of Hell and torment, the NWT reads "annihilation." That was done to bludgeon Scripture to fit their bias about the afterlife. It is one thing to disagree with Scripture. I respect that. it is quite another to corrupt the translation so that it agree with your position. Also, "Jehovah" is a serious mistranslation. And that is Hebrew 101 material. So I feel I have very good reason to write off the NWT as bogus and corrupt.

In a pervious post, I point3ed out biblical passages, such as Isa. 19:14 and Num. 14:24, where spirit denotes the seat of our emotions and therefore overlaps with the soul. Yu need to better address such passages if you want to win me over.

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:30 pm

[Replying to post 144 by JehovahsWitness]

I am referring to Paul, I I Cor. 15. I did not say I didn't understand it. I just said key details are missing.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:32 pm

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 119 by JehovahsWitness]

I am simply saying that Paul, for example, makes it clear that persons survive beyond the grave, with some sort of superdooper body.

Paul does not "make clear" that persons survive beyond the grave. He always speaks of the dead as "sleeping." That is, they are not conscious, but really dead. He speaks of those who are like him, chosen to rule with Christ in spirit bodies, as "sleeping" in their graves, to be raised back to life when Christ calls them out of their graves and back to life, in the latter part of this system of things, NOT immediately after death.

I Corinthians 11:30
I Thessalonians 4:13