Therefore, what consensus is there for any evidence for a soul(s)? As the existence of the soul is very central to any belief or religion.
(my first post
)What is a soul?
Moderator: Moderators
What is a soul?
Post #1It is fact that the Physical Brain controls memories, personality. Thousands of other actions are all controlled by our nervous system, which is managed by our brains.
Therefore, what consensus is there for any evidence for a soul(s)? As the existence of the soul is very central to any belief or religion.
(my first post)
Therefore, what consensus is there for any evidence for a soul(s)? As the existence of the soul is very central to any belief or religion.
(my first post
)Post #191
[Replying to post 188 by Checkpoint]
True. The idea of an immaterial soul comes from Hellenic philosophy, later incorporated into Christianity, not the Bible. There is no disembodied existence talked about in Scripture. Resurrection is resurrection of the body, as Paul makes clear in I Cor. 15.
True. The idea of an immaterial soul comes from Hellenic philosophy, later incorporated into Christianity, not the Bible. There is no disembodied existence talked about in Scripture. Resurrection is resurrection of the body, as Paul makes clear in I Cor. 15.
-
Talishi
- Guru
- Posts: 1156
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:31 pm
- Location: Seattle
- Been thanked: 2 times
- Contact:
Post #192
On the other hand, Revelation, between seals Five and Six, speaks of souls under the altar of God in heaven complaining about how long it's taking for God to take vengeance for sending them to a better place. This well before the first and second resurrections of Revelation 20, which themselves are separated by 1000 years.hoghead1 wrote: True. The idea of an immaterial soul comes from Hellenic philosophy, later incorporated into Christianity, not the Bible. There is no disembodied existence talked about in Scripture. Resurrection is resurrection of the body, as Paul makes clear in I Cor. 15.
Thank you for playing Debating Christianity & Religion!
Post #193
[Replying to post 192 by Talishi]
I'm not sure I follow your point here. Are you arguing these souls exist in some sort of disembodied state, extensionless? What?
The Book of revelations has proven very difficult to interpret. I take the position it is actually a symbolic account of hope an immediate downfall fo teh Roman Empire.
I'm not sure I follow your point here. Are you arguing these souls exist in some sort of disembodied state, extensionless? What?
The Book of revelations has proven very difficult to interpret. I take the position it is actually a symbolic account of hope an immediate downfall fo teh Roman Empire.
-
Checkpoint
- Prodigy
- Posts: 4069
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
- Has thanked: 105 times
- Been thanked: 64 times
Post #194
Yes, except that resurrection is of the whole person, not just their body.hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 188 by Checkpoint]
True. The idea of an immaterial soul comes from Hellenic philosophy, later incorporated into Christianity, not the Bible. There is no disembodied existence talked about in Scripture. Resurrection is resurrection of the body, as Paul makes clear in I Cor. 15.
Paul in that passage is answering a specific question, verse 35:
"The dead" believers will be raised, not just their body.But someone will ask, How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?
"They come" back to life, all that makes them persons.
-
onewithhim
- Savant
- Posts: 11114
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
- Location: Norwich, CT
- Has thanked: 1581 times
- Been thanked: 470 times
Post #195
OK, I'll go into what you cited. I usually think (and I thought the same of you) that people will get the idea of what is being said over and over. I didn't think I would have to repeat myself again and again. And JehovahsWitness has posted some excellent information, which I felt would clear up a lot. But the fog seems to remain.hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 134 by onewithhim]
I cited you some passages where the two clearly overlap, however. If you want me to take you case seriously, you need to address those.
You say that the terms "soul" and "spirit" considerably overlap. Of course they would, since a person's impelling mental inclination (one aspect of the term "spirit"), which is the force that causes a person to display a certain attitude or emotion, would be a part of what makes a person whole. It involves the person's mental processes---his thoughts and feelings---and not a separate being inside that has consciousness of its own, which separates at death. It's purely brain activity---(nothing to do with an "immortal spirit" that lives on after death.) So in that way a person's spirit is part of the soul.
Do you see the difference? You say that a person has a separate spirit body that "goes back to God," fully conscious, at death. The Scriptures tell us of a spirit within us that has no consciousness but is (1)a FORCE that keeps us alive, and (2)our own mental inclinations that help make us who we are with our particular personality.
I'll go on and take your "overlapping" proof scriptures one by one.
SOUL = seat of emotions: (1) Genesis 42:21: "...we saw the distress of his soul when he implored compassion on our part..." Is there anything there that contradicts what I explained above? The SOUL is the whole person. When the person is distressed, his whole self is involved. There is no need to think that there is another separate, conscious, spirit PERSON inside that is distressed. (2) Deuteronomy 28:65: "...Jehovah will indeed give you there a trembling heart and a failing of the eyes and despair of soul." The same can be said in this instance. "Despair of soul" is a situation that the whole person finds himself in. There is NO INDICATION that he has a separate spirit person inside him that is conscious on its own and can leave when the physical person dies.
SPIRIT = seat of emotions (the "same as with the soul"): (1) Isaiah 19:14: "The LORD has mixed within her a spirit of distortion; they have led Egypt astray in all that it does." This is referring to the counselors of Pharaoh who counsel unreasonable things. They have no knowledge of God and His purposes; they are deceived and their thoughts are distorted. The "spirit of distortion," or, as the New American Bible says, "a spirit of dizziness," which influences the counselors of Pharaoh, is one of two things....but NOT a spirit within any person that would dictate to the person what he must think and which has a consciousness all of its own and can depart at death and go on living as that person. (Which, I think, is what you're trying to prove, right?) The two things that the verse might be referring to: (a) a spirit person, like an angel, who would make the already wayward and deceived counselors "dizzy" because of their lack of appreciation of the true God; or (b) the very influence of the "spirit of the authority of the air" (Ephesians 2:2), which is the impelling mental state of Satan that saturates everything in this world. It is NOT a spirit person that is inside everybody and has a consciousness all of its own and separates at death, to go on living.
(2) Numbers 14:24: "As for my servant Caleb, because a different spirit has proved to be with him and he kept following wholly after me..." Is this speaking of a spirit person---an angel---that was with Caleb? If that is so, it doesn't prove any of your arguments. Or do you think it is Caleb's own mental inclination? That shows that what Caleb thought did indeed have an effect on his whole self, everything about him. There is no indication of a separate, conscious spirit body inside Caleb that would leave his body at death.
Along with this goes your next point: "The 'spirit' can denote innermost thoughts." I think we have discussed this thoroughly already here, but I'll comment once again, since I said I would take each of your verses. (1) Proverbs 16:20: (I think you may have meant 16:19) "Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud" (KJV). Hello. A good example of a person's own mental inclination---the force that causes a person to show a certain attitude or disposition. We've all said at one time or another about someone, "She is a mean-spirited person." Do we mean that she has a conscious, separate spirit body inside her that makes her mean? No. She is mean herself, with no separate scheming spirit making her do anything. We might speak of a person as "putting on airs," or of showing an "air of calmness," or of "having a depressed spirit." We speak of "breaking a person's spirit" in the sense of discouraging and disheartening him. We may talk of "getting into the spirit of an occasion" (e.g., "the Christmas spirit"), or we may refer to the "mob spirit" that people get caught up in at times. These are not conscious spirit bodies that inhabit people and that leave at death. I'm sure you can see the difference.
(2) Mark 2:8: "Jesus, having discerned immediately by his spirit that they were reasoning that way..." Once again, Jesus' "spirit" being the mental inclination which he possessed, and only that. Were you trying to say that Jesus had a spirit body inside him that filled him in on what was going on? I can't wrap my mind around that idea. Is that what you mean? (3) John 11:33: "Jesus, therefore, when he saw her weeping and the Jews that came with her weeping, groaned in the spirit and became troubled." Another example of Jesus' own mental inclination. He was a compassionate man. (4) I Corinthians 2:11: "For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man that is in him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God, except the spirit of God." Here we have another example of man's mental inclinations. Humans' mental inclinations are on a different level than God's spirit. God's spirit is His active force that accomplishes whatever He wishes to get done. It is a very powerful force....after all, Jehovah created the universe with His spirit (through, of course, His Son). There is no indication here that man has a conscious spirit person/body inhabiting his physical body that will separate at death.
You then say that "spirit can denote deep insights and wisdom; prophets have been moved by 'the spirit of wisdom.'" Numbers 11:17: "...I shall have to take away some of the spirit that is upon you and place it upon them, and they will have to help you in carrying the load of the people..." This is Jehovah's own holy spirit that He caused to be on Moses, and He was about to give some of that spirit to the other men that Moses chose to help him.
I already commented on your statement that "the spirit returns to God who gave it." You didn't mention where it was to be found, but I know it is Ecclesiastes 12:7, and it is referring to the life-force that keeps a soul alive. When a switch gets turned off in your house, and the light is no longer on, that force (current) is not some conscious being, but it simply isn't there any longer keeping the light on. The current, in a sense, "returned" to where it came from. "Spirit" and "soul" would not be interchangeable in that verse, would they?
You say that the "soul" is "said to be saved." Yes! People (souls) are in a position to be saved, by Jesus' ransom sacrifice. Psalm 116:14 doesn't say anything about a soul or being saved. Verse 13 speaks of "the cup of grand salvation I shall take up." Yes, we all want to be saved. 2 Samuel 4:9: "David answered Rechab and Baanah his brother...and said to them: 'As Jehovah who redeemed my soul out of all distress is living....'" Again a verse that attributes to Jehovah the redemption of someone's "soul," or his whole person.
You have not shown that the "soul" and the "spirit" mean the same thing anywhere. They can AFFECT one another, but they are not the same.
Last edited by onewithhim on Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post #196
[Replying to Checkpoint]
Yes, of course, the person will be fully raised, not just his or her body. That isn't my point. Rather, my point is the Bible views ourselves as a psychophysical unity, not as an immaterial soul stuck in a body, to be liberated from the material world at death. Many believers have that notion, but it stems form teh influx of Hellenic metaphysics into Christendom, not the Bible.
Yes, of course, the person will be fully raised, not just his or her body. That isn't my point. Rather, my point is the Bible views ourselves as a psychophysical unity, not as an immaterial soul stuck in a body, to be liberated from the material world at death. Many believers have that notion, but it stems form teh influx of Hellenic metaphysics into Christendom, not the Bible.
Post #197
[Replying to post 195 by onewithhim]
Good point. Let's clear out the fog. You are seriously misconstruing my position. So let me see if I can clarify matters. There are two issues here. Let's take them one by one.
Fist is the relationship of mind to matter. Many Christians have the idea that mind or soul is a wholly immaterial entity, immaterial being and meaning extensionless, which is somehow stuck in the world of matter, specifically the body, which is the source of all evil. That idea largely came from the influx of Hellenic metaphysics and standards of perfection into the early church. Predominant schools of Hellenic philosophy had great trouble with the material world of time and change, and so viewed it as inherently evil, a big illusion. Hence, Plato speaks of the body as the prison house of the soul, the soul of al evil. He sharply contrasts the reality of teh soul, with the world of matter, arguing the soul ha no extension, occupies no space. That way, it can never be harmed or hurt. This mind-body dualism persisted all down through the ages. It was championed by Rene Descartes, who stressed the basic defining characteristic of matter was extension; the basic characteristic of mind is thought.
However, in the Bible, there is no mind-body dualism, no immaterial, extensionless realm of being. Eveything has a physical dimension. Even God appears to have a body, as all body parts are attributed to God. Nephesh is in the blood, not some extensionless entity dumped into the body, wehre it is trapped. Humans are psychophysical unities, not an immaterial soul trapped in a body. Although the Bible gives more than one conflicting account of the afterlife, and is generally vague on key details, it does make clear that al persons live on after death and that they exist in a physical or bodily state, as Paul makes clear in I Cor. 15, for example. The shades in Sheol are not immaterial entities, as given in the case of Saul with the medium of Endor.
For my pat, I believe that mind and matter are one. There is no mindless matter or matterless mind. All things , in all their aspects, consist exclusively of minds or souls. Therefore, in that I believe we exist beyond the grave, I believe we do so in tangible, physical form, not as disembodied minds.
The next issue is the relationship of spirit to soul. Some people see the Spirit, both capital and small s, as denoting a purely mechanical, impersonal force. To start with, I have trouble with tat view, because it sets up the Spirit, both capital and small s, as an alien, threatening, depersonalizing entity that swallows us up. Furthermore, this mechanical-force idea appears completely contradicted by Scripture. In Scripture, the Holy Spirit denotes God as present in ourselves and our world. And I view God as a personal, loving being, not an impersonal, mechanical force. Furthermore, the Bible describes the Spirit as our comforter. Now, an impersonal, mechanical force can grant us to comfot. it's simply too alien to us. Furthermore, the Bible grants emotion to the Spirit. Read Paul in Rom. 8. He says teh Spirit prays for us with such deep emotion than we cannot begin to understand it. Does that sound like an impersonal, mechanical force to you? It sure doesn't to me. What does it mean to think of God as imparting his Spirit into us? It means to think of there being a very direct flow of God's own feelings into ourselves, which makes us alive.
Good point. Let's clear out the fog. You are seriously misconstruing my position. So let me see if I can clarify matters. There are two issues here. Let's take them one by one.
Fist is the relationship of mind to matter. Many Christians have the idea that mind or soul is a wholly immaterial entity, immaterial being and meaning extensionless, which is somehow stuck in the world of matter, specifically the body, which is the source of all evil. That idea largely came from the influx of Hellenic metaphysics and standards of perfection into the early church. Predominant schools of Hellenic philosophy had great trouble with the material world of time and change, and so viewed it as inherently evil, a big illusion. Hence, Plato speaks of the body as the prison house of the soul, the soul of al evil. He sharply contrasts the reality of teh soul, with the world of matter, arguing the soul ha no extension, occupies no space. That way, it can never be harmed or hurt. This mind-body dualism persisted all down through the ages. It was championed by Rene Descartes, who stressed the basic defining characteristic of matter was extension; the basic characteristic of mind is thought.
However, in the Bible, there is no mind-body dualism, no immaterial, extensionless realm of being. Eveything has a physical dimension. Even God appears to have a body, as all body parts are attributed to God. Nephesh is in the blood, not some extensionless entity dumped into the body, wehre it is trapped. Humans are psychophysical unities, not an immaterial soul trapped in a body. Although the Bible gives more than one conflicting account of the afterlife, and is generally vague on key details, it does make clear that al persons live on after death and that they exist in a physical or bodily state, as Paul makes clear in I Cor. 15, for example. The shades in Sheol are not immaterial entities, as given in the case of Saul with the medium of Endor.
For my pat, I believe that mind and matter are one. There is no mindless matter or matterless mind. All things , in all their aspects, consist exclusively of minds or souls. Therefore, in that I believe we exist beyond the grave, I believe we do so in tangible, physical form, not as disembodied minds.
The next issue is the relationship of spirit to soul. Some people see the Spirit, both capital and small s, as denoting a purely mechanical, impersonal force. To start with, I have trouble with tat view, because it sets up the Spirit, both capital and small s, as an alien, threatening, depersonalizing entity that swallows us up. Furthermore, this mechanical-force idea appears completely contradicted by Scripture. In Scripture, the Holy Spirit denotes God as present in ourselves and our world. And I view God as a personal, loving being, not an impersonal, mechanical force. Furthermore, the Bible describes the Spirit as our comforter. Now, an impersonal, mechanical force can grant us to comfot. it's simply too alien to us. Furthermore, the Bible grants emotion to the Spirit. Read Paul in Rom. 8. He says teh Spirit prays for us with such deep emotion than we cannot begin to understand it. Does that sound like an impersonal, mechanical force to you? It sure doesn't to me. What does it mean to think of God as imparting his Spirit into us? It means to think of there being a very direct flow of God's own feelings into ourselves, which makes us alive.
Post #198
[Replying to post 182 by JehovahsWitness]
Sorry. I simply use JDub as an abbreviation, like they use TDub as an abbreviation for TWA. Having cleared that up, I am looking for your response to my post.
Sorry. I simply use JDub as an abbreviation, like they use TDub as an abbreviation for TWA. Having cleared that up, I am looking for your response to my post.
Post #199
[Replying to post 181 by Blastcat]
I and others already explained that the soul has more than one meaning in the Bible. It can denote the mind and it is also used to denote the whole person, mind and body together. The reason is that the Bible views persons as a psychophysical unity. Mind and matter are one. Later on, via the influx of Hellenic philosophy, Christians came to view soul and body, mind and matter, dualistically, as two separate, independent, antithetical realities. The soul was something wholly immaterial and pure. The body was the source of all evil. Hence, much later Christian literature depicts the soul as something immaterial, extensionless, trapped inside the wicked body, which it is striving to be liberated from. So the Judeo-Christian tradition has produced at least two conflicting views of the soul.
I and others already explained that the soul has more than one meaning in the Bible. It can denote the mind and it is also used to denote the whole person, mind and body together. The reason is that the Bible views persons as a psychophysical unity. Mind and matter are one. Later on, via the influx of Hellenic philosophy, Christians came to view soul and body, mind and matter, dualistically, as two separate, independent, antithetical realities. The soul was something wholly immaterial and pure. The body was the source of all evil. Hence, much later Christian literature depicts the soul as something immaterial, extensionless, trapped inside the wicked body, which it is striving to be liberated from. So the Judeo-Christian tradition has produced at least two conflicting views of the soul.
Post #200
[Replying to post 182 by JehovahsWitness]
As I said, sorry. I'll refer to the JW's from now on. Now, since we are on the subject of correct and proper names, maybe you could return the favor. I find "Jehovah" to be highly distasteful and blasphemous, as it represents a serious mistranslation of YHWH. Perhaps you would do me the same courtesy and refer to God by his proper, chosen name, YHWH, in the future?
As I said, sorry. I'll refer to the JW's from now on. Now, since we are on the subject of correct and proper names, maybe you could return the favor. I find "Jehovah" to be highly distasteful and blasphemous, as it represents a serious mistranslation of YHWH. Perhaps you would do me the same courtesy and refer to God by his proper, chosen name, YHWH, in the future?
