What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
theStudent
Guru
Posts: 1566
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:32 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

arian
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3252
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:15 am
Location: AZ

Re: What If...?

Post #691

Post by arian »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 676 by theStudent]

No thank you. I am very familiar with he WatchTower Society. it view it as an anti-intellectual cult. If you want to go with that sort of thing, that is your privilege. But leave me out of it.
WOW, .. and you know what about Evolution? Try reading the post next time hoghead number 1!

arian
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3252
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:15 am
Location: AZ

Post #692

Post by arian »

H.sapiens wrote: theStudent's ignorance when it comes to taxonomy boggles my mind. What he is finding so amusing is basically this: Foxes and Turtles and Parakeets and Amoebas are all animals. That is because they are all derived from the same original stock, a stem animal. In that same sense, all terrestrial terrapods are fish, and all birds are reptiles, as are all mammals. You never loose your ancestral names, at least to a cladistic taxonomist. You are a human, but you are also an Ape and a Mammal and a Reptile and an Amphibian and a Fish and a Vertebrate, but you likely only recognize Human, Ape, Mammal, and Vertebrate. theStudent is playing a really foolish word game because he knows nothing about taxonomy.

Only recognize human?? Then explain this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh0F4FBLJRE

why is the middle class white housewife (it's nice to see him using white people for once) classified as an ape? You see where she is, pictured within a family tree of apes.

What is she in Evolution? An animal, a human ape, cousin of rats.

Now if evolution taxonomied her as a human (not an animal, or an ape) I could see your point, .. but the woman is obviously CLASSIFIED as an animal, of the ape family. TheStudent makes perfect sense, .. pointing out nonsense in Evolution.

Here is Gods Taxonomy of the human flesh:

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.


This goes for plants, animals and humans. Now that's real scientific Taxonomy, and if you dig up ANY plant, animal or human remains, you will find it true!
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

arian
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3252
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:15 am
Location: AZ

Re: What If...?

Post #693

Post by arian »

Clownboat wrote:
arian wrote:
man wrote:
arian wrote:
man wrote:
What exactly do they stand to gain by lying about evolution theory?

I can't see anybody profiting from that.
What, .. are you serious??
Taking away mans identity labeling him just an animal, then numbering him (social security), then reduce man (male female) to an "it" a genderless, mindless zombie, then chem-trail his air, poison his water, take away his job and make him a beggar (Welfare), sucker him into worshipping the deified fallen angel Lucifer as God (give him religion instead of the truth), they become very submissive where the "humans" can pass just about any law, or agenda to control them, and rob them (I come home from the Dealer with more problems to my car then the simple one I went in with, which was a routine inspection), and use the human-animal to kill off their own simply because the "humans" told their family (husband/wife, son/daughter) that "they have cancer", .. so to "cut costs" (.. lol), they show the parent like the mother how to inject the deadly chemicals into their own children until their little hearts explode. Not too fast now, .. they wouldn't want to disappoint Dr. Mengele, so they slowly "torture" our little ones to death, which can take from 6 months up to 6 years (as I just found out recently).

Yep 6 frikin' years these "Human Nurses" at the Children's Cancer Hospital .. (get it, .. Cancer Hospital), taking them to outings, to Big-Splash, to Disney Land to pick up their hopes in living because those shots just makes them want to die and it's no fun for them killing someone who want's to die, .. so they go all out to bring a little smile on their little tormented faces, only to bring them home to another set of injections which the children BEG, .. that's right, BEG the "human-nurses" not to give them anymore, .. which makes it all the more exciting for the "humans".

The "Final Solution" for all non-Germans, .. that's what they gain, to get rid of 6 BILLION of us labeled as animals, and leave room for the 500 million "humans/German". Haven't you read UN Agenda 21, 2030? Who do you think IS the UN?

Nope, .. it's not all the humanus-apuses sitting in them chairs at the UN, the "humans" are at home, guiding and keeping "An-Eye" on the process/progress.
This is dumb.
I know, because all this is evil. The whole reason they invented the Evolution falsely called theory is to justify the evil.

Here is a celebration of evil:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br6_hIguCY0
Talking about dumb, right?

What is gained by all this evil?

More torture.
Hahahahahaha.
The ending sums this up really well IMO!

Ceremony featuring 600 people.
Opening on the 6th month.
at 2016
= 666
So does the ending music, you didn't miss that did you?
Hello Clownboat, I've been away for a while, sorry everyone for the late response.
Clownboat wrote:And now to show the type of people watching and commenting on this production.
- I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS AND DESTROYS THE FOUL WICKED!!!!
- Better pick which side you are on! Jesus Christ's or Satan's... Because at this rate, you DON'T have TIME to ride the fence.
- WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!! ACCEPT JESUS BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!
You should heed these comments, they meant well. Time is short my friend, wake up, accept Jesus before it's too late!!
Clownboat wrote: Oh no! Some fruity, artsy presentation written by a pretentious socialite! Has to be Satan. And numbers! Oh no! Numbers! Next thing you will know there will be shapes! Where's my Bible?! (Made me giggle, had to include this one)

#-o
Of course, numbers, shapes, it's all silly right? Sheesh, shapes, what's next, letters and numbers?? Like .. E=MC^2 ?

Instead of giggling, maybe you should google more!?

Take care my old friend.

https://vesselanaw.wordpress.com/satani ... r-meaning/
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

benchwarmer
Prodigy
Posts: 2511
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:40 am
Has thanked: 2347 times
Been thanked: 962 times

Post #694

Post by benchwarmer »

arian wrote: The difference between creation and evolution can be easily proven. Let's take ANYTHING in existence, .. something anyone can see and examine without having to build a multi-billion dollar LHC in their basement with a bunch of pagan idols surrounding it.
Given the above, I'm not sure why I'm bothering. Are you suggesting because we actually have to expend some effort to examine something it's voodoo? You should probably throw your computer in the garbage. That was developed with a lot of money by the type of scientists who like to build expensive machines to discover things.
arian wrote: Let's start with an amoeba, or a single celled bacteria, or a seed of an apple, a toaster, car, plane, a pebble or even a grain of sand, .. whatever, pick one, any thing living or not!?
I've posted this multiple times now and it's usually ignored. Apparently when people from your side of the argument ask for evidence and get it they like to ignore it or dismiss it because they would actually have to go do something themselves to see it. Oh well here it is anyway:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/15/scien ... sults.html

Note that is an article about the research, not the actual published research itself. The research paper is available as well if you are actually motivated to read it. I will leave you to find the link. Google it or it is probably referenced in the above article.

Your anti science stance is well noted. Enjoy posting here without your computer. After all it was developed by priests and magicians. I'm surprised you don't burn your fingers touching it.

arian
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3252
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:15 am
Location: AZ

Post #695

Post by arian »

benchwarmer wrote:
arian wrote: The difference between creation and evolution can be easily proven. Let's take ANYTHING in existence, .. something anyone can see and examine without having to build a multi-billion dollar LHC in their basement with a bunch of pagan idols surrounding it.
Given the above, I'm not sure why I'm bothering. Are you suggesting because we actually have to expend some effort to examine something it's voodoo?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVw_mPvYcDM

You see all the references to 666CERN and the LHC, .. so yes, voodoo, unless you have a better name for it?

It's one thing to spend tens of thousands of dollars to develop a really powerful microscope to examine human cells and find the genetic blueprint of man like the DNA, .. and another to spend Millions and Billions of dollars to build a giant pipeline to see if they could recreate a religious Priests dream where he seen/imagined seeing our universe Big-Banging in nothing, where it started to create space for itself to expand in and time as it expanded, OK?

Don't you think spending BILLION$ on something that NEVER HAPPENED just to hope to prove a religious epiphany like the BB-Evolution story is ludicrous? Why not go to the moon, and actually take some real photos of it, and of earth while there, .. huh? Or spend $50.00 to turn that multi-billion dollar Hubble 180 degrees and give us a days worth of actual photos of Earth!? Or of those supposed planets around us instead of all them CGI artist-renderings??

I know, how about spending a few billion on an apparatus creating pixy-dust, I sure would buy some so I could fly!
You should probably throw your computer in the garbage. That was developed with a lot of money by the type of scientists who like to build expensive machines to discover things.
You know they are not smashing particles to "discover things", but these crazy people (see commercials on 666CERN, the LHC, etc.) are hoping to create a universe based on science fiction imaginations.

If they were observing "parallel universes" with the LHC, and recording that to see if they could replicate that somehow, now that I would understand! Or if they were creating humans by changing the environment and the food of monkeys, now that would be science.

Or "observing" different quantum particles for contractions, or monitoring them as because of gravity they are getting denser and hotter, .. hey, that would be some evidence of the possibility of them Big-Banging and creating Spacetime! That would be something worthwhile. But like I said, going on some sci-fi never observed fairytale, they might as well spend a few billion on hoping to create pixy dust, .. why not?
benchwarmer wrote:
arian wrote: Let's start with an amoeba, or a single celled bacteria, or a seed of an apple, a toaster, car, plane, a pebble or even a grain of sand, .. whatever, pick one, any thing living or not!?
I've posted this multiple times now and it's usually ignored. Apparently when people from your side of the argument ask for evidence and get it they like to ignore it or dismiss it because they would actually have to go do something themselves to see it. Oh well here it is anyway:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/15/scien ... sults.html

Note that is an article about the research, not the actual published research itself. The research paper is available as well if you are actually motivated to read it. I will leave you to find the link. Google it or it is probably referenced in the above article.

Your anti science stance is well noted. Enjoy posting here without your computer. After all it was developed by priests and magicians. I'm surprised you don't burn your fingers touching it.
Again, read my post. I can breed dogs, heck even horses, not just bacteria. What I asked for is proof of evolution, that something can come out of nothing. How about this, I'll even provide a heated 100 lb. rock, (I don't know if we could squeeze it till it reaches 3.2 gazillion degrees, but hey if gravity can do that to a quantum speck like a string, it should have no problem squeezing a 100 lb. rock to reach that heat, right? After all, we already have gravity, it don't even have to evolve it. Save a lot of time-before-time, right?) and lets see it can sweat sea water and create an atmosphere!?

Hey, thanks for responding buddy, it's a debate right? I seen you respond to far more ludicrous topics/comments than mine, so no damage done, right?

God bless you my friend.
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

User avatar
H.sapiens
Guru
Posts: 2043
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:08 pm
Location: Ka'u Hawaii

Post #696

Post by H.sapiens »

[Replying to arian]

Does that bestow holy status on Richard Asprin's Thieves World, Sanctuary and Myths series?

User avatar
H.sapiens
Guru
Posts: 2043
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:08 pm
Location: Ka'u Hawaii

Post #697

Post by H.sapiens »

[Replying to post 687 by arian]

"Let's start with an amoeba, or a single celled bacteria, or a seed of an apple, a toaster, car, plane, a pebble or even a grain of sand, .. whatever, pick one, any thing living or not!... "Experiment by Richard Lenski: http://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/ meets your challenge, in spades.

benchwarmer
Prodigy
Posts: 2511
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:40 am
Has thanked: 2347 times
Been thanked: 962 times

Post #698

Post by benchwarmer »

arian wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVw_mPvYcDM

You see all the references to 666CERN and the LHC, .. so yes, voodoo, unless you have a better name for it?
I'm sorry, I don't see what you are talking about. I see an odd opening ceremony for a tunnel that is basically a parade with some interpretive dance. What's that got to do with the actual scientists doing their jobs with the equipment? If I stood outside your house and peed on your flowers should your neighbors assume you enjoy smelling urine?
arian wrote: It's one thing to spend tens of thousands of dollars to develop a really powerful microscope to examine human cells and find the genetic blueprint of man like the DNA, .. and another to spend Millions and Billions of dollars to build a giant pipeline to see if they could recreate a religious Priests dream where he seen/imagined seeing our universe Big-Banging in nothing, where it started to create space for itself to expand in and time as it expanded, OK?
Perhaps it would be best to actually go to the site that explains the science and motivations from the people who actually use the equipment in question:

http://home.cern/about
At CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, physicists and engineers are probing the fundamental structure of the universe. They use the world's largest and most complex scientific instruments to study the basic constituents of matter " the fundamental particles. The particles are made to collide together at close to the speed of light. The process gives the physicists clues about how the particles interact, and provides insights into the fundamental laws of nature.
arian wrote: Don't you think spending BILLION$ on something that NEVER HAPPENED just to hope to prove a religious epiphany like the BB-Evolution story is ludicrous?
You clearly have no clue what the scientists at CERN are actually doing or trying to achieve. You say it's ok to develop a big microscope, then throw the LHC under the bus. Guess what? The LHC is basically a big microscope used to detect sub atomic particles. They smash atoms together and see what pops out. It's the adult version of what I used to do as a kid. Take things apart to see what's inside.
arian wrote: Why not go to the moon, and actually take some real photos of it, and of earth while there, .. huh? Or spend $50.00 to turn that multi-billion dollar Hubble 180 degrees and give us a days worth of actual photos of Earth!? Or of those supposed planets around us instead of all them CGI artist-renderings??
Are you trying to suggest we don't have actual photos now? You do realize more than one nation has done what you are asking for. If any one nation was trying to pull a fast one, they would have already been hung out to dry to the absolute glee of the other nations. Unless of course you think all humanity is against you. For that I would suggest a larger tin foil hat. I use the heavy duty foil on mine and a chin strap so it doesn't fall off and let the evil thoughts in.
arian wrote: I know, how about spending a few billion on an apparatus creating pixy-dust, I sure would buy some so I could fly!
Or you could just spend a few thousand and go get your pilots license. Worked for me. I couldn't find pixy dust, so it was the only option.
arian wrote: You know they are not smashing particles to "discover things", but these crazy people (see commercials on 666CERN, the LHC, etc.) are hoping to create a universe based on science fiction imaginations.
Perhaps you should arrange a visit if you are worried: http://visit.cern/tours
arian wrote: If they were observing "parallel universes" with the LHC, and recording that to see if they could replicate that somehow, now that I would understand! Or if they were creating humans by changing the environment and the food of monkeys, now that would be science.
Smashing particles together and observing the results isn't science? Do you even know what science is?
arian wrote: Or "observing" different quantum particles for contractions, or monitoring them as because of gravity they are getting denser and hotter, .. hey, that would be some evidence of the possibility of them Big-Banging and creating Spacetime! That would be something worthwhile. But like I said, going on some sci-fi never observed fairytale, they might as well spend a few billion on hoping to create pixy dust, .. why not?
You seem all bent out of shape that doing actual science might destroy your ancient beliefs. If you think they are just doing some voodoo, then why complain about it. You should be happy because they will never discover anything. Meanwhile in the real world, the scientists will continue doing their actual research and discovering more about the building blocks of of the universe.
arian wrote: Again, read my post. I can breed dogs, heck even horses, not just bacteria. What I asked for is proof of evolution, that something can come out of nothing.
As Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman from Mythbusters liked to say "Well there's your problem" as they point at an empty engine cavity or otherwise obvious missing piece.

Evolution has nothing to do with something coming out of nothing. I can't believe after all this time you still make this mistake. You're not new here so I know you know what evolution actually states. Enjoy your strawman though, makes for great diversions.
arian wrote: How about this, I'll even provide a heated 100 lb. rock, (I don't know if we could squeeze it till it reaches 3.2 gazillion degrees, but hey if gravity can do that to a quantum speck like a string, it should have no problem squeezing a 100 lb. rock to reach that heat, right? After all, we already have gravity, it don't even have to evolve it. Save a lot of time-before-time, right?) and lets see it can sweat sea water and create an atmosphere!?
I don't even know what you are trying to say there. It sounds like you took 2 words from every scientific theory you don't like, mashed them all together and changed all the 'sciencey' words into random objects.
arian wrote: Hey, thanks for responding buddy, it's a debate right? I seen you respond to far more ludicrous topics/comments than mine, so no damage done, right?

God bless you my friend.
Well, you might have me there. I've responded to some pretty 'odd' stuff. Some of your comments are getting pretty close though :)

Have a good one.

arian
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3252
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:15 am
Location: AZ

Post #699

Post by arian »

H.sapiens wrote: [Replying to arian]

Does that bestow holy status on Richard Asprin's Thieves World, Sanctuary and Myths series?
Maybe not Holy status, but definitely supernatural.
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

arian
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3252
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:15 am
Location: AZ

Post #700

Post by arian »

H.sapiens wrote: [Replying to post 687 by arian]

"Let's start with an amoeba, or a single celled bacteria, or a seed of an apple, a toaster, car, plane, a pebble or even a grain of sand, .. whatever, pick one, any thing living or not!... "Experiment by Richard Lenski: http://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/ meets your challenge, in spades.
E-coli, .. we have 8 million species speciating for the past 4.2 billion years and here these kids are breeding E-Coli.

Even if an e-coli speciated into another species, it would not happen within the bacteria's lifetime right? the e-coli will remain e-coli even after another 4 billion years of evolution, which would be trillions of generations, so what exactly are they trying to prove? That e-coli can change? I told you I can breed dogs, but gosh darn they remain dogs.

But I want to see Dawkins change dog breeds simply by changing its environment and it's food, now that I would like to see. Breed the same male/female breeds (he could use gay dogs to see what comes out?) and change their food and environment of each successive litter, and see what changes can be observed?

I mean why haven't they done that to animals like dogs for instance in this past 100 years of evolution being a fact?? and show us unbelievers that just by changing their environment like carpet covered tree-stump to climb on, and cat food to eat, and after a few hundred generations, whala, .. the dog should start to resemble a cat, .. right!? I mean "What if ... ?"
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

Post Reply