Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus is now "King of kings, and Lord of lords" and His Father remains the only Lord/God/YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh/"I Am" for there is no other God besides Him!

Okay then, we have identified the NAME of the Father (God) as Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWY

You asked

I truly don't understand, why is "religion" so damned important that people, even good Bible believing people would deny their Creator revealed in the Bible and instead bow and worship the god/gods of their religion?

I don't know why people do this, perhaps because they have been mislead.

Or can someone here, those of you who have read and studied the Bible for all them years, .. PLEASE explain to me where I have failed to distinguish our God who rules from Heaven He calls His home, and His Son Word in the Bible, from the Deities who divine their half truths and lies from the supernatural realm, that you guys worship!?

You seem to have accurately identified the God of the bible, since you admitted his name as revealed to Moses as YHWH (Jehovah).


Hope that helps,

JW

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 259 by JehovahsWitness]

Why do you keep saying Yahweh/Jehovah? Jehovah is a serious mistranslation of YHWH. God has but one name, YHWH, not Jehovah.

[arian]

I apologize for not acknowledging your post #8. One thing for sure, "E.G." got good explanations for his erroneous views.

I didn't follow some of your comments, like Eve representing the Son. That's a new one to me. I think the explanation of John 1:1---"and the Word was God"---that shows that the actual statement of John was "and the Word was a god" is the most reliable explanation. People at that time used the title "god" to refer to powerful humans and angels as well as God Almighty.....the CONTEXT defining the usage, and also the rules for translating from Greek to English must be considered, which "the Word was God" adherents do not consider.

sorry for the late response, hoping to catch up!?

Yes, the theological (study of god/gods) explanation, as in religion do make God out to be "just one of the gods in religions, the biggest one, .. or most powerful etc. but that is NOT what the Bible teaches.

God said: "Let us make man in our own image" remember? "Male and female He created them", .. correct?

The religious theologians made God out to be a mentally ill, deified man, a deity, who has a "multiple personality disorder" who talks to himself.

As if that wasn't bad enough, they turned our Infinite and Eternal Creator who Himself said that His home was in Heaven, into three persons, .. deities (both Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians call God a Deity) who rules from earths supernatural realm, .. which is where Satan and his angels were cast down into, where he roams around like a "roaring lion" (sounds familiar?) to devour whom he may!

God said "let us make man, .." which means He was talking to His Son Word, by and through whom He created all things including Adam and Eve.

Adam represents the image of God, and Eve (being taken out of Adam, just as God beget His Son Word from within himself) represents Gods Son.

In the beginning was the Word, .. God has no beginning nor end. So the beginning with God was when He created/begotten His Son Word, .. who "was with God", and before that, "was God", .. just as Eve before God took her out of Adam "was Adam"!

It's all there in both OT and the New, just have to have the Spirit of God put it all together for you, .. and not some religious Scholar who is heavily influenced by his religion, especially influenced by someone like the Pope, and his Catholic Religion.

Um, you said that JWs "make up a dozen more" blasphemies, to take the place of the one they deny. That surprised me. Just what would you say are the "blasphemies" that they make up?

I stopped trying to figure out who was saying what, so I'll stop here. I enjoyed many of your comments, but I got confused as to what E.G. was saying and what you were saying.

Naming our Infinite Creator like someone names a pet is wrong.
Calling "Gods Only Begotten Son Word" a "Cherubim", .. a deity who resides in the supernatural realm is blasphemy.

Lucifer was an anointing Cherub, who now has been cast down to earths supernatural realm from where he acts "Like the Most High", so both God and His Son Jesus are made into Lucifer and some sun-god, .. deities, men, .. three men/persons deified to godhood who represent the "idea" god.

God bless.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 261 by arian]

The only religious organization that insists on translating Jn. 1 as "a god" is the Watchtower Society via their NWT. Their translation is suspicious on numerous grounds. No member on the "translation" committee had university degrees, let alone an established record of major NT scholarship. Franz, one of the major lynchpins on the committee, admitted, in open court, that he could not read Hebrew and that the "translation" was done via the holy Spirit communicating with the public-relations department. The majority of major biblical scholars have panned the NWT. For example, Bruce Metzger, one of the deans of NT scholarship, called it "a frightful mistranslation,""erroneous,""pernicious,""reprehensible." Barclay stated that "it is absolutely clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest." The specific problems with the JW translation are: There is no indefinite article in Greek. Hence, top indicate that, Greek has a special construction, tisi, which is not used here. The immediately preceding clause introduced the definite article before the word "God." Colwell" Rule states that when a definite article is introduced before the noun following the verb, it is generally omitted when that noun is used as the predicate nominative, which is the case in the passage in Jn. 1. It's safe to say the NWT breaks all the rules of Greek grammar.

I don't know where you are getting all this material about theologians saying God has some sort of personality disorder. I am a theologian and I am wondering what yur sources are for your claims here.

[arian]

Just where is it written or implied "he paid the ransom to Satan", please?

Good question, especially as onewithim pointed out the bible explicitly states the ransom was paid to God. Justice demanded a ransom, Satan may have caused the problem but Jehovah was the solution.

It is an easy mistake to make. Think about what a ransom is. Ransom is the practice of holding a prisoner or item to extort money or property to secure their release, or it may refer to the sum of money involved. The person to whom the ransom is paid, is an extortionist, "I will free the prisoner, if the ransom is paid." We don't like to think of God as being an extortionist, so many wrongly conclude that Satan is the jailer extorting the ransom.

Hello McCulloch, hope all is well with you!

I like your comment, it is exactly what Christianity was doing with "indulgences" as you said: "the practice of holding a prisoner or item to extort money or property to secure their release (from purgatory) or it may refer to the sum of money involved. The person to whom the ransom is paid, is an extortionist, "I will free the prisoner, if the ransom is paid." Or else they will burn in hell for an eternity, and boy, people are still serving the church. Either to keep from ending up in hell, the other is a slave to the idea that there is no hell. I don't know which is worse?



Were you ever a Catholic McCulloch?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I think it would be helpful in better understanding your approach to Scripture if you would clarify your concept of Judaism. I think a good place to start is with the Watchtower Declaration of 1933 and its letter to Hitler. In case you and others here are unfamiliar with these documents, I have included copies below. I suggest we all read over these and then take our discussion from there.

Declaration of Facts
"This company of German people, who are peaceable and law-abiding citizens representing many others from every part of Germany, all of whom are earnestly laboring for the highest welfare of the people of this land, being now duely assembled at Berlin this 25th day of June, A.D. 1933, do joyfully declare our complete devotion to Jehovah, the Almighty God, and to his kingdom under Christ Jesus, whose shed blood bought the human race. We declare that the holy Scriptures set forth in the Bible constitute the Word of Jehovah God given to men for their guidance in righteousness, and that the Word of God is the truth, and that it is of greatest importance that man have a knowledge of his relationship to God. We ask to be judged by the standard of the Word of God.

"Christ Jesus is Jehovah God's great Witness to the truth, and as his faithful and devoted followers we are, by His grace, witnesses to the truth. The purpose of this Declaration is that we may present a true and faithful witness before rulers and the people as to the name and purpose of Jehovah God and our relation thereto.

"We are wrongfully charged before the ruling powers of this government and before the people of this nation; and in order that the name of Jehovah God may be exalted in the minds of the people, and that his benevolent purposes be better understood and our position fairly placed before the government, we do respectfully ask the rulers of the nation and the people to give a fair and impartial consideration to the statement of facts here made.

"The Scriptures plainly state that the chief opposer of Jehovah God and the greatest enemy of mankind is Satan the Devil, whose name is also that of Serpent and Dragon. It is written in the Scriptures that Satan, who has long been the invisible ruler of this world, deceives and blinds the people to the truth in order that the light of and concerning Jehovah God and Christ Jesus may not shine into the minds of men. (2 Corinthians 4: 3,4) Frequently by fraud, subtility [sic] and deception Satan has induced honest persons to war with each other, in order that he might turn them all away from God and destroy them. Above all things, the people need to know Jehovah God and his gracious provision for their general welfare.
Jews
"By the term `clergy', as used in our literature, reference is made to the class of professed religious teachers, priests and Jesuits who employ improper political means to accomplish their ends and join forces even with those who deny God and the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the same class to whom Jesus referred as his persecutors. We have no criticism of any honest religious teacher.

"When Jesus went to the Jews to tell them of the truth, it was the Jewish clergy, that is to say, the Pharisees and priests, that violently opposed him and persecuted him and caused him to be charged with all manner of crimes and offenses. They refused to hear the truth, and addressing them Jesus said: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.' (John 8: 43-45) Although the Pharisees and priests then claimed to represent Jehovah God Jesus told them that they were in fact the representatives of Satan the Devil.

"We have no fight with any persons or religious teachers, but we must call attention to the fact that it is generally those who claim to represent God and Christ Jesus who are in fact our persecutors and who misrepresent us before the governments and nations. As true followers of Christ Jesus we are to expect such opposition, and we mention it here in explanation of why we have been misrepresented before the rulers of this nation. To his faithful followers Jesus said: `Remember the word I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they [the false religious teachers] have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.' (John 15: 20) Furthermore, Jesus said that this same class of men would cause his true followers to be wrongfully charged before the ruling powers, his language being: `But take heed to yourselves: for they [false religious teachers] shall deliver you up to councils [police power]; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.' (Mark 13: 9) This explains why Jehovah God now permits his faithful witnesses to be misrepresented and persecuted, namely, that those of a wrong spirit may identify themselves as opponents of God and thus bear witness against themselves. The same materialistic spirit that caused the persecution of Jesus Christ now exists and is back of the persecution of us his faithful followers.

"It is falsely charged by our enemies that we have received financial support for our work from the Jews. Nothing is farther from the truth. Up to this hour there never has been the slightest bit of money contributed to our work by Jews. We are the faithful followers of Christ Jesus and believe upon Him as the Savior of the world, whereas the Jews entirely reject Jesus Christ and emphatically deny that he is the Savior of the world sent of God for man's good. This of itself should be sufficient proof to show that we receive no support from Jews and that therefore the charges against us are maliciously false and could proceed only from Satan, our great enemy.

"The greatest and most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American empire. By that is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the stronghold of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is a proverb concerning the city of New York which says: `The Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.' We have no fight with any of these persons mentioned, but, as the witnesses for Jehovah and in obedience to his commandment set forth in the Scriptures, we are compelled to call attention to the truth concerning the same in order that the people may be enlightened concerning God and his purpose.
Our Literature
"It is said that our books and like literature, when circulated amongst the people, constitute a danger to the peace and safety of the nation. We are certain that his conclusion is due to the fact that our books and other literature have not been carefully examined by the rulers and hence are not properly understood. We respectfully call attention to the fact that these books and other literature were written originally in America and the language therein used has been adapted to the American style of plainness of speech and, when translated into German, the same appears to be harsh. We admit that the same truths might be stated in a less blunt and more pleasing phrase, and yet the language of these books follows closely the language of the Bible.

"It should be borne in mind that in the British Empire and in America the common people have suffered and are now suffering greatly because of the misrule of Big Business and conscienceless politicians, which misrule has been and is supported by political religionists, and hence the writers of our books or literature have endeavored to employ plain language to convey to the people the proper thought or understanding. The language used, however, is not as strong or emphatic as that used by Jesus Christ in denouncing the oppressors and false teachers of his time.

"The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position; and we further state in our literature the reason for the existence of oppressive Big Business and the wrongful political religious influence, because the Holy Scriptures plainly declare that these oppressive instruments proceed from the Devil, and that the complete relief therefrom is God's kingdom under Christ. It is therefore impossible for our literature or our work to in any wise be a danger or a menace to the peace and safety of the state.

"Our organization is not political in any sense. We only insist on teaching the Word of Jehovah God to the people, and that without hindrance. We do not object or try to hinder anyone's teaching or believing what he desires, but we only ask the freedom to believe and teach what we conceive the bible to teach, and then let the people decide which they wish to believe.

"To know Jehovah God and his gracious provision for mankind is of most vital importance to all persons, because God has declared in His Word that where there is no vision or understanding of his Word the people perish. (Proverbs 29: 18) We have devoted our lives and our material substance to the work of enabling the people to gain a vision or understanding of God's Word, and therefore it is impossible for our literature and our work to be a menace to the peace and safety of the nation. Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles, and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles and will give to the people peace and prosperity and the greatest desire of every honest heart.

"Our organization seeks neither money nor members, but we are a company or organized body of Christian people engaged solely in the benevolent work of teaching the Word of God to the people at the least possible cost to them. Our organization was originally incorporated in the United States of America in 1884 under the name of the WATCH TOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY, and in 1914 incorporated under the laws of Great Britain by the name of the INTERNATIONAL BIBLE STUDENTS ASSOCIATION. These are merely the corporate names of our organization for legally carrying forward its work. The Scriptural name by which we are known is `Jehovah's witnesses'. We are engaged solely in a benevolent work. The purpose of our organization is to aid the people to understand the Bible, which discloses the only possible way for the complete relief and blessing for mankind. Our organization has extended its work throughout the earth. The education, culture and upbuilding of the people must and will come through the agency of God's kingdom concerning which we teach as set forth in the Bible. The salvation of the people depends upon the true knowledge of and obedience to Jehovah God and his righteous ways.

"The people are in great distress and in need of help to understand the reason for their unhappy condition and what is the means of relief. The Scriptures, when understood, make this matter clear. Instead of collecting money from the people and using the same to erect great buildings and to support men in luxury, we print the gospel message of God's kingdom and carry it to the homes of the people that they may, at the least inconvenience to themselves, gain a knowledge of God's purposes concerning them.

"A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present national government are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our publications, and show that Jehovah God will see to it that these high ideals in due time will be attained by all persons who love righteousness and who obey the Most High. Instead, therefore, of our literature and our work's being a menace to the principles of the present government we are the strongest supporters of such high ideals. For this reason Satan, the enemy of all men who desire righteousness, has sought to misrepresent our work and prevent us from carrying it on in this land.

"For many years our organization has put forth an unselfish and persistent effort to do good to the people. Our American brethren have greatly assisted in the work in Germany, and with money freely contributed, and that at a time when all Germany was in dire distress. Now because it appears that Germany may soon be free from oppression and that the people may be lifted up, Satan, the great enemy, puts forth his endeavors to destroy that benevolent work in this land.

The letter Jehovah's Witnesses sent to Hitler:

Translation of a letter of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, German Branch, Wachtturmstraasse 1-19, Magdeburg/Germany:
Dear Reichskanzler,
on June 25, 1933, at the Sporthalle Wilmersdorf in Berlin there was a conference of appx. 5,000 Bible Researchers (Jehovah's Witnesses), representing several millions of Germans who are friends and followers of this movements for many years. Purpose of this conference, which was attended by representatives of all bible students communities of Germany, was to find ways and means to inform the Reichskanzler, as well as other high officials of the German Reich and the governments of its individual countries of the following:
In several parts of the country, actions were taken against a corporation of serious Christian men and women who are standing on the foundation of positive Christianity. Such actions can only described as the persecution of Christians by other Christians, since the accusations - which have led to these actions against us - primarily are of clerical, especially catholic origin and untrue.
We are absolutely convinced of the impartiality of the government officials dealing with this situation. Yet we conclude that the contents of our literature and the purpose of our movement are largely misinterpreted due to the accusations which are brought up against us by our religious opposers and which might result in a prejudiced viewpoint. This might also be due to the amount of our literature and the high demand put upon the respective officials.
For this reason the things discussed at the conference were put down as a declaration of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, in order to pro vide you, Mr. Reichskanzler, as well as the high officials of the German Reich and its countries, with a document e witnesses of the Name of Jehovah, the most high, the father of our Lord and redeemer Jesus Christ.
We are convinced that you, Mr. Reichskanzler, will not have such activities disturbed. The communities of the Bible Researchers of Germany and their members are generally known as defenders of respect of the Most High and zealous students of the bible. Local police officials will need to testify to the fact that Bible Researchers have to be counted among elements of the country and ist people who are known for their love and support of oder. There sole mission is to draw the hearts of humans to God.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (located in Magdeburg/Germany) is the organizing center of the mission of the Bible Researchers.
The Brooklyn headquarter of the Watchtower Society is pro German in an exemplary way and has been so for many years. For that reason, in 1918, the president of the Society and seven members of the board of directors were sentenced to 80 years in prison, because the president refused to use two of the magazines published in America under his direction for war propaganda against Germany. These two magazines, "The Watchtower" and "Bible Student" were the only magazines in America which refused to engage in anti-German propaganda and for that reason were prohibited and suppressed in America during the war.
In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has even taken a position against it. The enclosed declaration underlines this fact and emphasizes that the people leading in such propaganda (Jewish businessmen and catholics) also are the most rigorous persecutors of the work of our Society and ist board of directors. This and other statements of the declaration are meant to re pudiate the slanderous accusation, that Bible Researchers are supported by the Jews.
The conference of five thousand delegates received the statement of the governor in Magdeburg with great satisfaction, who declared that it can not be proven that there is any relationship between the Bible Researchers and Communists or Marxists, as it was stated by our religious opposers (which means that such a statement is also nothing but slander). A press report in the Magdeburger Tageszeitung, issue 104, dated May 5, 1933, reads as follows:
A declaration of the government concerning the occupation of the Bible Researcher building: The press department of the government issued the following information: "Occupation of the property of the Society of Serious Bible Researchers" in Magdeburg was lifted on April 29, since no material to support the claim of communist activities could be found."
Another report in the Magdeburger Tageszeitung, issue 102, dated May 3, 199, reads:
The office of the Bible Researchers Society informed us that the actions taken against the Watchtower Society and the Bible Researchers Society, were abolished. All property was returned, since a comprehensive search led to the result that nothing can be held against this Society neither as far as political nor as criminal activities are concerned. It was also concluded that both Societies are of an absolutely un-political and strictly religious nature. On request, the government confirmed the correctness of these statements.
The conference of five thousand delegates emphasized that according to this state of affairs it considered it beneath ist dignity to even defend itself against any disparaging accusations of Marxist or even Communist activites. Such disproved slander of our religious opposers undoubtedly carry the sign of religious competition. Their goal is to stifle an honest warner with the ugly means of slander instead of using the word of God.
The conference of five thousand delegates also noted - as is expressed in the declaration - that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the German Reich proclaimed respecting the relationship of humans to God, namels: honesty of the created being towards its creator.
The conference came to the conclusion that there are no contradictions when it comes to the relationship between the Bible Researchers of Germany to the national government of the German Reich. To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the Bible Researchers, it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich.
Based upon the supposedly strong language of our literature, some of our books were banned. The conference of the five thousand delegates pointed to the fact that the contents of the books which were criticized, only refers to the situation and actions within the Anglo-American world power - especially England - which is responsible for the League of Nations and its contracts and burdons imposed upon Germany. What is written in our literature - no matter whether from a financial or political point of view - is only directed towards the suppressors of the German people and their country, but by no means refers to Germany itself, which is trying hard to fight against the imposed burdens. Therefore the ban imposed upon these books is completely unjustified.
In some parts of the country Bible Researchers are even prohibited to meet for prayer and church service and for many weeks are hoping for a solution of this situation which is stifling their religious lives. The follow ing was expressed about this situation:
We want to continue to live up to the prohibition imposed upon us, for we are confident that Mr. Reichskanzler and the high government officials will lift this ban - which forces tens of thousands of Christian men and women to a martyrdom which can only be compared to that of the first Christians - after they have gained an understanding of the real situation.
Finally, the conference of the five thousand delegates expressed that both Bible Researchers and Watchtower Organization stand for keeping up order and security within the state, as well as furthering the primary high ideals of the national government in the field of religion. The afore mentioned, as well as the enclosed declaration are meant as a brief information directed to both Mr. Reichskanzler as leader of the people and all the other high government officials of the German Reich.
The enclosed declaration was read by the secretary to the five thousand delegates of the conference of the Bible Researchers. It was approved unanimously and it was decided to present one copy each together with this report of the conference to Mr. Reichskanzler and all the other high government officials of the Reich and its countries.
This we want to do herewith and ask that the following request, which is also stated in the declaration, will be received with favour:
Namely that a commission from our midst is given the chance to person ally explain the true situation either to Mr. Reichskanzler himself or to the minister of internal affairs. Alternatively, we ask Mr. Reichskanzler to appoint a commission of men who do not have any religious prejudice against us - men who do not have professional religious interests but are solely interested to comply to the just principles as they were set up by the Reichskanzler himself - to investigate our situation impartially. The principles mentioned, refer to paragraph 24 of the program of the National Socialistic German Party of Workers, which reads:
"We demand the freedom of all religious denominations within the state, as far as they do not endanger the state itself or violate the moral values of the German race.
The party as such represents the viewpoint of positive Christianity without being attached to any particular denomination. It fights against the Jewish-materialistic spirit inside and outside of us and is convinced that any recovery of the German people can only take place from the inside out."
We are fully convinced that, once we have been judged impartially, based firstly upon God's word and secondly upon the above mentioned paragraphs, the national government of Germany will find no reason to prevent us from our church services and missionary activities.
We are looking forward to your kind approval, which we hope to receive soon, and want to assure our highest respect to you, honorable Mr. Reichskanzler.
Yours faithfully
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society Magdeburg

[arian]

[Replying to post 261 by arian]

The only religious organization that insists on translating Jn. 1 as "a god" is the Watchtower Society via their NWT. Their translation is suspicious on numerous grounds.

I agree, the JW's translation of the Bible is suspicious on numerous grounds. I know what I read, it says "the Word was God", just as "Eve was Adam" before God beget her from Adam

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.


third verse says; that the Word was God, but the first two verses clearly say that He (the Word) had a beginning, and he was 'with' God. So where does an unschooled (as in public education) much less a theologian go to find answers? Where, to theologians? The wise of this world, to Quantum physicist who claim they have found God, .. where, or to whom do we turn to other than Gods Holy Spirit, right?

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.

Ah, there is hope for the likes of me yet! So John 1 is clearly talking about Gods Son Word, NOT God himself, correct? Unless interpreting what it says the Trinitarian Scholar way would read:

"1 In the beginning was the God, and the God was with God, and the God was God. 2 God was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through God, and without God nothing was made that was made." Sure wouldn't make any sense.

No member on the "translation" committee had university degrees, let alone an established record of major NT scholarship. Franz, one of the major lynchpins on the committee, admitted, in open court, that he could not read Hebrew and that the "translation" was done via the holy Spirit communicating with the public-relations department. The majority of major biblical scholars have panned the NWT. For example, Bruce Metzger, one of the deans of NT scholarship, called it "a frightful mistranslation," "erroneous," "pernicious," "reprehensible." Barclay stated that "it is absolutely clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest." The specific problems with the JW translation are: There is no indefinite article in Greek. Hence, top indicate that, Greek has a special construction, tisi, which is not used here. The immediately preceding clause introduced the definite article before the word "God." Colwell" Rule states that when a definite article is introduced before the noun following the verb, it is generally omitted when that noun is used as the predicate nominative, which is the case in the passage in Jn. 1. It's safe to say the NWT breaks all the rules of Greek grammar.

Which is why I stick with my American English, or Hungarian language, .. I heard God speaks both of those languages not just Hebrew and Greek.

I don't know where you are getting all this material about theologians saying God has some sort of personality disorder. I am a theologian and I am wondering what yur sources are for your claims here.

My source is the Bible, and observing Gods creation as in nature. So tell me who God was talking to in:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.� 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

Christian Scholars say God is plural; One, who is more than one, so He was talking to his "other-selves" when He was saying this. This would make God have a mental disability, multiple personality disorder, right?

In Christianity and their Trinity-doctrine God is an idea as presented in the Christian/Masonic/Illuminati Pyramid triangle, .. where at the top of the Pyramid is this man called "father-god", then the lower right corner is "sun-god", and on the left is "spirit-god". These three are "deities" (who reside in the supernatural realm) make up the "idea" of 'god' which is presented as the All-seeing eye of Horus in the Pyramid that is so popularized today.

Here is how a simple fisherman like myself understands this from a King James, or New KJ version, it really doesn't matter as far as that goes: There are two accounts of creation, .. the first account in:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

So as we can see that the Genesis account is the WHO? This is where God created the Heavens and the Earth.

John 1 account is the HOW, also the WHY, .. BY, and THROUGH whom God created Everything, .. through Gods Word, or language, not much different than how we created our computer world.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to arian]

I think you maybe have gotten a little confused about John. It does not sstate the Word had a beginning. Rather, it is affirming that the Word eternally preexisted and therefore already existed at the beginning of the world. The passage, correctly translated, reads that the Word was God, not "a" god, but God.

True, some pictorial images of the Trinity due represents it as a triangle, which, by the way, predates Freemasonry, the Shriners, and all that. I'm still not sure what your concern is about it. There are a number of Trinitarian models or theories. There is the immanent theory of the Trinity, the economic theory of the Trinity, the social theory of the Trinity, the modal theory of the Trinity, the psychological theory of the Trinity, etc. I don't know where to begin, because I'm still not sure what your concern is or what, if any, of the literature here you have looked at.

There is debate over what the plurality in Gen. 1 really means. Some think it is God talking to angels; others think it is a residual of polytheism, which ancient Israel was prone to; others think it may refer to the Trinity.

If and when you are looking for guidance, you should read up as much as possible on the history and traditions of the Trinity. That way, you will have a well-informed data base to draw upon. Just saying the heck with all that, I'll just pray and come up with right answer is simply a naïve, head-in-the sand approach. It's a fad with many today to go what's called "Bible dipping." Just pray about a problem, pop the Bible open to whatever page you fall upon, and just drop your hand, and presto, there is the answer. Total nonsense. It doesn't work that way.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 257 by hoghead1]

A no has been entered for you.

So while you claim that Witnesses make up their own history, why am I not surprised that in reality, it is your that make your own history.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 267 by 2timothy316


I'm not sure I follow you at all here. You pulled up a brief excerpt from an article about Constantine, which I agree with. Please do not do my thinking for me, or put words in my mouth. Now, if you wish to challenge a particular point I have made, then you should identify it and provide your counterargument.