Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 257 by ttruscott]
It's not that simple. Do you know what it means to be disfellowshipped?

Pardon me, but to be disfellowshipped means that the person lied when they promised to dedicate themselves to Jehovah and His earthly organization. This is very clear at a person's baptism. The person vows to serve Jehovah and they clearly realize that they will from now on be associated with His organization here on Earth. Baptism is not an over-night thing. It takes at least months of intense study and then going through a long list of questions about what the person believes. This person would have to be very sure of his beliefs and decide not to renege on these beliefs, to be baptized. Someone who later reneges is either a liar and has been living a lie, or he doesn't consider a promise to be worth anything. He is a person of very shaky integrity, if he had any at all.

.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 261 by onewithhim] Are those born into the faith being baptized as young a eight years old? If they have not been baptized by sixteen is it concidered a crisis?

[tam]

What makes you think these two songs are the same song?

What makes you think there are two?

The text states only the 144 000 master a certain new song.

Yet those spoken of at Rev 5:9 are also singing a new song... and these ones are not all from the 144 000.

Again, as the text makes clear. 144 000 come from 12 tribes. Those at Rev: 5:9, come from EVERY tribe (which would necessarily include the 12 tribes as well), people, nation and tongue.

There is only one new song that can be mastered.

How do you know this?

Can you quote the scripture that states there is only one new song to be sung/learned/mastered.

The text speaks of A song that only the 144 000 can master. It does not speak of there being ONLY one new song to be sung.

That means to me that the 'new song' is singular otherwise the Bible would say, 'there is another new song'.

Are you sure you aren't approaching that backward? Because logically, I think that is incorrect.

If the text states that there is only one... then you know there is only one. If the text states that some learned a new song, it does not logically follow that there is no other new song to be sung.


Its like stating that because the text states that the 144 000 follow the lamb wherever he goes... that ONLY the 144 000 follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

This conclusion does not logically follow the statement/premise.

The Bible is clear there are two groups. One that is numbered and one that is not.

Agreed... although the one group (the 144 000) is part of the other group; and only the 144 000 are numbered. (because only the 144 000 are RESERVED from the tribes of Israel, so that God has reserved for Himself a remnant. God does not forget Israel; and God did not REPLACE Israel. Gentiles are grafted IN, but there are 144 000 positions GUARANTEED for the natural branches as well. That is the WHOLE point of listing those twelve tribes SPECIFICALLY and EXPLICITLY; rather than JUST saying 144 000 from "Israel".)

One that can master the new song and one that can't.

One 'group' that can master that particular song that no one else could master (because the text states that ONLY the 144 000 can master that song. So it is logical to deduct that only they can master that song - at least at the time that John saw/heard them.)


But your following statement does not logically follow:

Ones that will rule and one that will not.

To be clear, there are indeed two such groups: some who reign with Christ (the Bride, the Body of Christ, all of whom who take part in the first resurrection); and some who enter as subjects of the Kingdom.

But Christians are not divided into two such groups.

Christians (the Body/Bride of Christ) are those who reign with Christ for a thousand years. The sheep from the sheep and the goats parable (people from the nations who are not Christian but who are alive at Christ's coming and who did good to Christ -unknowingly- by doing good to even the least of His brothers) are part of those who enter the Kingdom as subjects of the Kingdom.

There is no mention of another new song in the Bible that everyone can master.

The song that everyone is singing at Revelation 5:9 is such a song. (or at least it is sung by those who Christ purchased with His blood for God, from every tribe, nation, people and tongue.)

Why else make a clear distinction that there was a song only the 144.00 could master?

Because there is a such a song. Seems simple enough. And the 144 000 are unique (from among Israel and from among the rest of the Body of Christ), so it makes sense to me that they would have a song that only they could master.


**


What you (or rather the WTS) have done with your interpretation makes no sense. Either the number and the tribes are literal - or the number and the tribes are symbolic. Anything else makes no sense... and one might want to consider that it is being done in this way in order to maintain a doctrine that was proven false (when more than 144 000 people ended up being members of the jw religion). And while I - on my own - used to think that it was all symbolic, I learned from my Lord that the number and the tribes are literal, and I also learned WHY (as I have shared above and in previous posts).


But most important - and being buried under minutia and doctrine and interpretation (which the WTS and other religions tend to do so as to obscure the truth from their followers, people who are looking at THEM rather than at CHRIST) - this doctrine of the WTS is false because it:

a) causes people to obey men and disobey Christ.

It causes people even to DENY Christ, by denying His body and His blood, which HE said that we must eat and drink, and that we are to KEEP doing this (eating and drinking) in remembrance of Him.


He said to do it. Those who are obeying HIM... do it.



b) no one taught that some should partake and some should not. Paul taught that a man ought to examine himself FIRST - to make sure he is not judging others. But Paul did not teach that the invitation to come to Christ, to be part of His body, was limited to 144 000.


CHRIST DID NOT TEACH THIS. THE APOSTLES DID NOT TEACH THIS. NO ONE (truthfully) TAUGHT THIS. AND YOU WILL NOT FIND THIS IN THE BIBLE.


It is a doctrine of men that was added almost two thousand years later, and the truth was then buried under this and many other doctrines and justifications of men.


And as stated numerous times, there is NO room for anyone to be teaching people to do something OTHER THAN what Christ taught the apostles. Because His words to them were this:

"Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey EVERYTHING I have commanded YOU."


Those are His words. And we are to keep His word and remain in Him.

"If anyone loves me, they will keep my word. My father will love them, and we will come and make our home with them."


"Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."




May anyone who wishes them be given ears so as to hear the truth, and many anyone who seeks and thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of LIFE!"


Peace to you and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

[Replying to post 257 by ttruscott]
It's not that simple. Do you know what it means to be disfellowshipped?

Pardon me, but to be disfellowshipped means that the person lied when they promised to dedicate themselves to Jehovah and His earthly organization. This is very clear at a person's baptism. The person vows to serve Jehovah and they clearly realize that they will from now on be associated with His organization here on Earth. Baptism is not an over-night thing. It takes at least months of intense study and then going through a long list of questions about what the person believes. This person would have to be very sure of his beliefs and decide not to renege on these beliefs, to be baptized. Someone who later reneges is either a liar and has been living a lie, or he doesn't consider a promise to be worth anything. He is a person of very shaky integrity, if he had any at all.

.

Dear one, could you please quote to me where is it written (in the book you consider to be the final authority) that anyone is to dedicate oneself to an earthly organization?


Thank you!


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 261 by onewithhim] Are those born into the faith being baptized as young a eight years old? If they have not been baptized by sixteen is it concidered a crisis?

No. It is very rare for anyone to be baptized at 8 years old, or even 10 or 12. No one I have ever known or known about was baptized by age 16 because to "have not been baptized by 16 is considered a crisis." Absolutely not. It is up to an individual to decide when they want to be baptized, many waiting until they are in their 20s or 30s, even though their family members are all baptized. It is negligent on a parent's part to allow a very young child to be baptized, even though the child wants to, however. A person must have some maturity, and know exactly what they are doing.

.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 257 by ttruscott]
It's not that simple. Do you know what it means to be disfellowshipped?

Pardon me, but to be disfellowshipped means that the person lied when they promised to dedicate themselves to Jehovah and His earthly organization. This is very clear at a person's baptism. The person vows to serve Jehovah and they clearly realize that they will from now on be associated with His organization here on Earth. Baptism is not an over-night thing. It takes at least months of intense study and then going through a long list of questions about what the person believes. This person would have to be very sure of his beliefs and decide not to renege on these beliefs, to be baptized. Someone who later reneges is either a liar and has been living a lie, or he doesn't consider a promise to be worth anything. He is a person of very shaky integrity, if he had any at all.

.

Dear one, could you please quote to me where is it written (in the book you consider to be the final authority) that anyone is to dedicate oneself to an earthly organization?


Thank you!


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The entire Old Testament is a testimony to the fact that the nation of Israel was dedicated to God's earthly organization. Israel was that organization, and every Israelite was a dedicated member of that organization.

Now that the Christian congregation is God's earthly organization, each member knows full well that they are a dedicated member of that organization, and they say aloud that they agree to this when they get baptized.

.

[tam]

[Replying to post 257 by ttruscott]
It's not that simple. Do you know what it means to be disfellowshipped?

Pardon me, but to be disfellowshipped means that the person lied when they promised to dedicate themselves to Jehovah and His earthly organization. This is very clear at a person's baptism. The person vows to serve Jehovah and they clearly realize that they will from now on be associated with His organization here on Earth. Baptism is not an over-night thing. It takes at least months of intense study and then going through a long list of questions about what the person believes. This person would have to be very sure of his beliefs and decide not to renege on these beliefs, to be baptized. Someone who later reneges is either a liar and has been living a lie, or he doesn't consider a promise to be worth anything. He is a person of very shaky integrity, if he had any at all.

.

Dear one, could you please quote to me where is it written (in the book you consider to be the final authority) that anyone is to dedicate oneself to an earthly organization?


Thank you!


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The entire Old Testament is a testimony to the fact that the nation of Israel was dedicated to God's earthly organization. Israel was that organization, and every Israelite was a dedicated member of that organization.

Now that the Christian congregation is God's earthly organization, each member knows full well that they are a dedicated member of that organization, and they say aloud that they agree to this when they get baptized.

.

So no quote then?

Perhaps I was not specific enough, for which I apologize.


Can you quote me from what is written that those who wish to be baptized (such as at Matthew 28:19) must also dedicate themselves to an earthly organization?

Did the Ethiopian dedicate himself during his baptism to an earthly organization? Or do you suppose that He was baptized by Philip in the way that Christ instructed (re: Matthew 28:19) Did Christ instruct His apostles to make sure that those who wished to be baptized (by water or spirit), dedicate themselves at the same time to an earthly organization?




Peace again!

your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Be so kind as to re-read my post?

[Checkpoint]

By inference, perhaps, but that is all it is, it is not decisive.

Lol... this is the book of Revelation, inference is pretty much all we got... anyway what do you think the parrellism we see inferes?

What exactly is "the parrellism we see", in your view?

Obviously if the great crowd cannot be numbered, they cannot be part of the group that is numbered.

I suggest it is more likely to be the other way around.

What do you mean by "the other way round" please explain.


JW

What cannot be numbered in its entirety may well include a specific numbered group as a part of it.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 265 by onewithhim] Are thirty year olds getting through armegeddon on their parents coattails? Your GB is insisting that if someone is old enough to drive they have reached the age of accountability and will not survive on account of their parents.