Does God change his mind?

[OnceConvinced]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 103 by 2timothy316]

If you are positing that God definitely knew the future, exactly what was going to happen, ahead of time, then yes, you are negating free will. The only way God could know the future as definite, ahead of time, is for God to have predetermined it, and that means we have no choice. If we have genuine freedom, then the future is undecided until we decide it. Ahead of time, God knows possibilities, but that's it, nothing definite, set in cement.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 100 by 2timothy316]

I don't see Zechariah as a prophecy about Christ at all. It is talking about what happened with Zechariah, purely concerned with his situation.

And no, as I have said, I don't think God knows the future as definite, ahead of time. It's undecided until we decide.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 120 by hoghead1]


[center]

Divine precognition[/center]

I think it most nave to argue that if Beethoven hadn't written his symphonies, for example, someone else would have. So I don't buy the argument that if Judas had not have done it, someone else would have. Reality doesn't work that way.

God's perfect plan doesn't work that way.
God gets what God wants. So, if God wanted Judas to do something, that's what God GETS.

I think you believe ( hard to tell really ) or MIGHT believe that the god of the Bible isn't quite perfect, doesn't know everything and can't DO everything, either.

Maybe that's why god just can't seem to get rid of Satan... Makes sense, I suppose.
Most people, however, take the god of the bible AS perfect...

And I don't buy the argument that God always gets his or her way.

You might not.
The Bible doesn't make a lot of sense to me, either.

But I really don't think that you have gone a long way to resolving the problems with the more common interpretations.

Then you think that the Bible god is some kind of a imperfect, semi powerful god who can't get his own way with the people he supposedly CREATED? Ok, fair enough.

He creates an entire universe ( maybe yes, maybe not ), presumably ( and I don't KNOW the mind of god.. but I've been told this ) in order for humans to ... worship and adore him, and for some reason, he already knows that some of them just wont. He gets upset when they don't? He has to burn them?

Ok.. I keep having to remind myself to not get upset that the Bible doesn't make sense. It's just that.. people are trying to make out as if it does.

I think that just drives me batty.

If so, God would never be disappointed or angered by anything.

I agree.

A god who knows the future can't be surprised at any outcome.
He might have know what was going to happen for an ETERNITY.. time enough for him to get "over it".

How could the god be surprised?
Or happy?
Why be happy or upset if we knows exactly what he's going to get?


I am NOT the one to say that the Bible is in any way coherent.


In any case, we might want to consider these passages that hint at God's foreknowledge:


Proverbs 16:9 ESV
"The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
"

• So much for free will.. it's GOD who sets the steps.
  Who knows the steps ahead of time?
  
  God does.

Proverbs 19:21 ESV
"Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand."

• Doesn't matter if you think you have free will.. it's God's PLAN that matters.
  That's what's going to stand.
  
  Like it or not.

Ephesians 2:10 ESV
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

• God worked it out ahead of time.
  We really got to do what he says.

Job 42:2 ESV / 143 helpful votes
I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. "

• Apparently, Job was talking direct to God.
  NO PURPOSE OF YOURS CAN BE THWARTED.
  
  Seems clear enough for me.
  Does God have a plan?

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. "

• It's not any human's DOING.. you were given grace ( or not, presumably ) by GOD.

Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. "

• So, we don't even really KNOW his plan or if he even HAS one.
  So, let's not pretend that we do.
  
  Let's not pretend that we know we have free will of not.
  Let's NOT pretend to "know the mind of God" anytime soon.

Philippians 2:13 ESV
For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

• We are like puppets.. God is working through us.
  Minds of our own?
  
  You have GOT to be kidding.

Ephesians 1:1-23 ESV
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, ... "

• EVEN AS HE CHOSE US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
  Seems like a plan and foreknowledge to me.

Ephesians 1:11 ESV
"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"

• It says it right there: We are predestined.
  According the the PURPOSE from whom works ALL THINGS.. according to his WILL.

Romans 8:28 ESV
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

• All things ( not just some but all of them ) work according to his PURPOSE...
  It doesn't say maybe or that God is taking any risks here.

Galatians 1:4 ESV
"Who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, "

• Things happen in our world ACCORDING TO THE WILL of the god.
  Doesn't sound to me that the god is being SURPRISED a lot.

John 16:13 ESV
"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."

• He seems to know the thing that are to come.
  Seems like precognition to me.

Psalm 33:10-11 ESV
"The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations. "

• The councel of the Lord STANDS FOREVER... the plans .. to all generations.
  Seems that the god had a plan and it's going to stand a pretty long time.

1 Corinthians 2:9 ESV
"But, as it is written, What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"

• Again, human are robots. We see just what the god intends us to see... when he prepared his PLAN.
  
  Apparently, god had a plan and we can only see the plan. Move along folks, there's nothing ELSE to see but the plan !
  
  Talk about precognition !
  There is only the god's plan that is POSSIBLE to see.
  
  And the plan is working according to God's will.
  Period.

Revelation 4:1 ESV
After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.

• Someone up there knows the future, that's for sure !

Ephesians 3:9-12 ESV
And to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him.

• So, God knows everything but us mere mortals don't. God knows the future, has a plan, an ETERNAL purpose, the plan can't be thwarted, all we can do is to AGREE.

Matthew 16:18 ESV
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

• Precognition, and an invincible plan.
  What better evidence can you HOPE for?

Proverbs 3:5-6 ESV
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.

• People might be wrong about the plan.. might even think that there IS no plan.. Or that God doesn't know what's going to happen. Forget about your own understanding.. just trust the Lord with all your heart.

But the Bible says otherwise.

I never would imagine that the Bible is consistent.
I'm sure you can find many passages that can demonstrate what you say.

That's what so great about the Bible.
It's very flexible that way.

[William]

[Replying to post 122 by hoghead1]

GOD knows what we will most likely decide, based on the accumulated data of experience the human race makes available to GOD. See more on that in post # 110

This is a 24/7/365 event string in which GOD accesses for the purpose of planing ahead.

GOD is always a *few* steps ahead.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 124 by William]




[center]How many is a "few" steps to an infinite god?[/center]

GOD is always a *few* steps ahead.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  If you think god is infinite, perfect, all knowing, all powerful, then why not think that god can be INFINITE amounts of steps ahead?
  
  

____________

[Justin108]

Actually, now that I'm looking in the Bible I know of no prophecy that says it would be the chief priest to be the ones that would pay. Just that 30 pieces of silver was to be the set price by the 'sons of Israel' as that is what the had valued God to be worth centuries before. Then it played out again for the price of betraying Jesus. It appears for a long time to pay 30 pieces of silver for something was supposed to be an insult. It was nothing new.

There are plenty of ways to insult people. How did God know they would use this insult specifically?

I don't know. The Bible doesn't give a step by step explanation on how God made this come about. Yet I have no reason to jump to the conclusion that someone lost their freewill to make it happen. I'm not doing the 'what if' game either.

Alternatively, God knew the future. But you're so hellbent on your own bias that you refuse to acknowledge this interpretation, even when no other alternative would make any sense.

The fact of the matter is if God knew for a fact that they would pay exactly 30 pieces of silver, God either had to force them or know the future. If God neither forced them, nor knew the future, then God guessed and if God guessed, he stood the risk of making a mistake. Do you believe God could have made a mistake?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 115 by JehovahsWitness]

I was not correct in saying that Jehovah put Judas up to the plot. That was indeed Satan and Jehovah's only part was allowing Satan to work. If Judas had changed his mind then Satan would have quickly influenced another person. As we know Jehovah lets evil people do evil deeds as 'vessels made for destruction'. Jehovah knew that Satan would use a person close to Jesus to betray him. Satan has used the same tactic throughout the Bible. Jehovah knows Satan's thoughts as well.

However, what I can't accept is that Jehovah sees something into the future as it is. Like fast forwarding on a DVD. Jehovah is not in control or the people on the DVD. This makes the DVD in control.

I will state again that you are correct in your post about Jehovah not having any part of evil plots. That is scripturally correct. However, that doesn't mean that Jehovah and even Jesus didn't plan where Jesus was to be and what to do when Satan put his evil plan into motion to make sure all the prophesies came true. Turning Satan's plan into a curse for Satan and a relief for all mankind.

I still think that uses 'honorable vessels' for an honorable use in making His prophecies come true. Esther is one that was used by God to turn an evil plot against it's creator. Jesus is another that did the same thing. Jehovah did have an active part in Jesus' life to make sure prophecy would come true. Jehovah protected him as an infant so that Herod wouldn't kill him. Jesus kept himself from being tossed off a cliff.. (Luke 4:16-30.) No one laid a hand upon him, because his hour had not yet come."John 7:30. This notes that Jehovah was actively doing something. That act was protection. True, not having part of any evil but He was controlling the timeline of Jesus' death by keeping Jesus safe. When the hour was approaching Jesus himself tells Judas at John 13:27 What you are doing, do it more quickly. So there must be some sort of control without controlling the person like a puppet or that the future is set in stone to ensure prophecy comes true.

[2timothy316]

Actually, now that I'm looking in the Bible I know of no prophecy that says it would be the chief priest to be the ones that would pay. Just that 30 pieces of silver was to be the set price by the 'sons of Israel' as that is what the had valued God to be worth centuries before. Then it played out again for the price of betraying Jesus. It appears for a long time to pay 30 pieces of silver for something was supposed to be an insult. It was nothing new.

There are plenty of ways to insult people. How did God know they would use this insult specifically?

I don't know. The Bible doesn't give a step by step explanation on how God made this come about. Yet I have no reason to jump to the conclusion that someone lost their freewill to make it happen. I'm not doing the 'what if' game either.

Alternatively, God knew the future. But you're so hellbent on your own bias...

Hold it right there. This is not my own bias. The scriptures do not support that Jehovah makes anyone do anything evil. What I'm doing is not taking what you and others hand me that contradict the Bible. Simply that God doesn't control people.

[Justin108]

Alternatively, God knew the future. But you're so hellbent on your own bias...

Hold it right there. This is not my own bias. The scriptures do not support that Jehovah makes anyone do anything evil.

Why do you make it seem like overriding our free will is my main argument? It isn't. My main argument is that God sees the future. Does scripture disallow the possibility that God knows the future?

Oh and by the way:

Exodus 7:3 But I will harden Pharaohs heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites.

Apparently God does make people do evil things. But again, this is not my primary claim. My primary claim is that God knows the future and it is by knowing the future that God knew Judas would be paid 30 pieces of silver. Either that or (as you seem to be suggesting) God just guessed

[2timothy316]

Alternatively, God knew the future. But you're so hellbent on your own bias...

Hold it right there. This is not my own bias. The scriptures do not support that Jehovah makes anyone do anything evil.

Why do you make it seem like overriding our free will is my main argument? It isn't. My main argument is that God sees the future. Does scripture disallow the possibility that God knows the future?

Because you're suggesting the God sees the future like He is watching a DVD. That would mean Judas was fated. Not by God but by something else. That the future is rigged and our choices known. That we are not in control of our choices. It's like saying God knows knew it was going to be Judas before he was even born. I can't accept this as that would mean no one really has freewill but we did the will of what the future has already written. The only way that Jehovah could see the future, choices and all, is if the future was already written.