Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[OnceConvinced]

If you go back over your recent posts you will see that you said that God knows that everyone praying to their idols is praying TO HIM. By saying that, you are agreeing with the use of idols in prayer & worship.

You are completely misrepresenting what I said. I never said they were praying to idols. I said they were praying to HIM. Unless of course they belong to a completely different religion where Jehovah is not the main focus.

I have never said that it's ok to worship or pray to idols. The bible is dead against that. Jehovah is dead against that. However, when say a Catholic bows down in front of a cross or an effigy of Jesus, they are not actually praying to that lump of wood. In their hearts they are praying to Jehovah. Their intent is that they are paying to Jehovah. Not the actual idol. Is that so difficult to grasp?

Likewise if a person prays to Jesus, they're not praying to an idol. They are praying to Jehovah. That is what they are intending.

Regarding praying to idols.....You said in your Post #121: "Even Catholics who may kneel in front of a wooden cross or effigy of Jesus aren't guilty of idol worship either. In their minds they are praying to Jehovah."

Then why do they make the idols at all? God said "DON'T MAKE THEM" didn't he? He didn't say, "You can make them as long as you pray to ME." He said, "You must not MAKE anything into an image," to use in worship.

You call them idols. Catholics don’t. The difference between a religious artefact and an idol is that when one prays to an idol they are praying to that idol. Catholics are not praying to idols. They are not making idols. It’s people like yourself that is calling them idols.

This is a little like people calling JW a cult. JWs don’t believe they are in a cult. They take offence. It’s those looking down at JW who call it a cult. What you are doing is the same thing when you look at the crucifixes and other things Catholics have in their church and call them idol worshippers.

However I don’t want to defend the Catholic church. I was never part of it and I don’t bow down in front of crosses or effigies of Jesus. Never did. I never had such things in my house. In fact for many years I saw the Catholics as false Christians for that very reason. They had idols. At least that’s what I thought.

But then one day I realised a few bible facts. I don’t want to repeat them again, but I will for the purposes of this illustration. God looks at intents and purposes. HE is a god who is inclusive not exclusive. He is a god of GRACE. I realised I had no right to judge Catholics. Nor did I have the right to judge other Christians either like Mormons (another version of Christianity I saw as false). I didn’t even have the right to judge JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES! Yes! Even JWs! As a Christian I had to tell myself that maybe even JWs are genuine in their desire to serve God. Perhaps their hearts are pure. Perhaps their intents is to serve God too? Why should I condemn them because they have doctrines that clash with my beliefs?

Even when I came to this site as an ex-Christian, I brought that belief with me. Ie if someone claims to be Christian who am I to say to them “no you’re not because you’re in a cult� or anything like that. It could be that they are as genuine in serving god as the next Christian. So I was willing to put any Christian whether Mormon, Catholic or JW in the Christian box. Yes, even you JWs. I came to this site putting you under the moniker of Christian too, even though all my life I’d been told they were a cult. If you don’t believe me, check out this thread where I stick up for JWs:

viewtopic.php?t=27626&sid=b069f1c80c737 ... 16185882ca

As a Christian I was being taught about God’s grace and how he looks at our intentions. Maybe I should go back to being that hardnosed Christian again and start denouncing certain groups of Christians for things like getting God’s name wrong or things like that?

You also stated in your Post #111 that you would never have considered speaking to a JW as someone who God sent to talk to you. You said, "Why would I ever take a JW as a spokesperson from God? That wouldn't make any sense at all, especially when I saw them as belonging to a cult. That would hardly be considered God trying to put me straight."

Let’s try putting that in context shall we?

You said:
In 40 years Jehovah's Witnesses never came to your home or tried to speak to you on the street, at work or on the internet?

I said:

Why would I ever take a JW as a spokesperson from God? That wouldn't make any sense at all, especially when I saw them as belonging to a cult. That would hardly be considered God trying to put me straight.

I had way more Christians telling me that JW was a cult. In fact no Christian ever told me they weren't. Even those who didn't like to brand other denominations as cults still saw JW as one. If God was trying to tell me anything it was don't trust JWs, as they are part of a cult.

Who do I take more seriously? The people I know and trust who are fervent followers of Jesus Christ or some weirdos who turn up on my doorstep?

What I am saying here is that I had no reason whatsoever to consider JW as spokesperson. As someone who I would take seriously as a spokesperson from God. I am specifically relating this to when I was a Christian. At the time I was losing my faith.

You said:
Well, as I see it, I think you just answered your own question. You wouldn't even consider listening to one of those cultists!

Now tell me OWH. How on earth do you come to that conclusion based on what I said to you earlier? I would never consider listening to one? I never said such a thing. All I did was say that I would never have considered you to be spokespeople from God. I still don’t consider you spokespeople from God. Nor anyone from any other version of Christianity for that matter. You are all in exactly the same boat with me.

However that does not mean I would not listen to you.

You said:
You say, "God would not be trying to talk to me through them! No way!"

Once again you misquote me here. I never said “no way�. I said I did not consider you to be spokespeople from God. I said I did not believe that he was speaking through you.

So you DID reject JWs as any viable attempt on God's part to reach out to you.

I don’t believe God is trying to talk to me through anyone. JWs included. I never said I wouldn’t listen though.

I ask: What Scripture are you reading? Tell me. The Scripture I have read shows Jesus teaching us WHOM TO PRAY TO. Did he say, "Pray to whomever...it doesn't matter because God knows that you mean to pray to Him"? I don't remember that being in any Scripture I have read. In fact Jesus taught us to pray TO THE FATHER (Matt.6:9) and no one else.

Now putting in “it doesn’t matter� is a complete misrepresentation of anything I said previously. I have made no such claim at all and you know it. It very much matters who I am praying to. It has to be Jehovah. And like I keep saying to you if I was praying to Jesus then in my heart I was praying to Jehovah. If I was wrong to do that, then so be it, but Jehovah is a god of grace who knows my intentions. Your version of Jehovah seems to have no grace whatsoever.

If I were to say the name Allah, then you would be right to accuse me of worshipping the wrong god. If I were to say Hare Krishna, then darn right I’m praying to a false god. However Jesus… if deemed to be part of the trinity is not a false god. He is JEHOVAH!

I guess you are seeing Scripture that I have never seen before.

I quoted you scriptures. All about how god looks at the heart and our intents. Do those scriptures mean nothing to you at all?

What about these scriptures where it talks about Jehovah’s grace. Are you going to flush them down the toilet too?

2nd Cor 12:9
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.� Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.


Romans 3:24:
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by eating ceremonial foods, which is of no benefit to those who do so.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

If you can't cite Scripture that says that it's OK to use idols in worship as long as you're praying to someone else, or Scripture that says that Jesus is equal in authority to Jehovah, or Scripture that shows that someone else is higher in authority than Jehovah, then I will have no further comment on this subject.

I never claimed it was ok to use idols. You are the one insisting some religious artefacts are idols.

Idols are things that are prayed to. If they are not prayed to then they are not idols. It really is that simple. Unless you can show where anyone is actually praying to an idol, you don’t have a leg to stand on. I never prayed to idols. I prayed to Jehovah.

Nor have I ever stated that there is any higher authority than Jehovah.

So please do not make out I made claims where I didn’t and please stop erecting obvious strawmen.

[OnceConvinced]

(IDOL: "An image or anything used as an object of worship in place of the true God."

Crosses and effigies of Jesus are not objects of worship in place of a true god. Unless of course someone is praying to them, thinking that those objects ARE God.

IDOLATRY: "Strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form, whether the images to which homage is paid are symbolical representations of the true God or of the false divinities which have been made the objects of worship in His stead.")

Praying to Jesus is
1) Not praying to a deity in visible form.
2) Not considered a symbolic representation of Jehovah.
3) Is not necessarily the focus of ones prayer or worship.
4) Usually an attempt to pray to Jehovah.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 160 by onewithhim]

However, I see that you have no interest in even attempting to see things from my point of view, so all I can do is wish you a good evening, and peace.

Far from it. Again, I have to say, I am pointing out that you, the person who rejects the Trinity, and those people over there who accept the Trinity, are pulling from the same book.
I, the person who is different to both of you, do not know which of you to believe.
Here's a verse a Trinity person can use, and reading it...I honestly don't see how you the non Trinity person can reinterpret it to say Jesus isn't God.
1 Timothy 3:14-16, from the NWT no less

I am writing you these things, though I am hoping to come to you shortly, 15 but in case I am delayed, so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in God’s household,+ which is the congregation of the living God, a pillar and support of the truth. 16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh,+ was declared righteous in spirit,+ appeared to angels,+ was preached about among nations,+ was believed upon in the world,+ was received up in glory.’

I have no stake in the game here, as to whether or not the Trinity is true. I don't care which it is, that is to say, I have no personal preference.

IMHO, people such as yourself are not really carefully considering the verse in question. It says in ITimothy 3:14-16 that the sacred secret of godly devotion is great. It doesn't say that a secret about GOD is great. It goes on to refer to Christ, "made manifest in flesh," etc., but does not state or infer anywhere that Christ is God. How do you get that out of it?

Some versions of the Bible actually say "God was manifest in the flesh," but most scholars will tell you that "God" was inserted by some biased overly-enthusiastic-for-the-trinity scribe, and most of the versions I have looked at say "He" or the word "Who," which does not indicate that Christ is God.




.

Apparently, you didn't fully read what I wrote. I pulled this translation of Timothy from the Jehovah's Witnesses version of the Bible, the NWT. So if you want your above criticism to continue to stand...then it's the Jehovah's Witnesses you want to direct it towards.
How does your criticism make sense at all, anyway? We have the author of the letter of Timothy giving us the proper pronoun, indicating what it is he's referring to when he says "how you ought to conduct yourself in God’s household,+ which is the congregation of the living God"
(capital G God by the way, you talked before about the difference between small g god and capital G God), so we know what the he in "He was made manifest in flesh" refers to.
Indeed, even going by what you yourself have written before, the above passage from Timothy can only be referring to Jesus as capital G God, as Jesus and God being one and the same. Notice it says "the living God". The, singular.

Anyway, is it your view that any time one reads the Bible and interprets it to mean Jesus and God are one and the same, they are just wrong. Automatically? There is no chance of this oneness of being, actually being true?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 170 by OnceConvinced]

For Christians who believe in the trinity, none of these scriptures are a problem, because when they pray to Jesus, they are intending on praying to Jehovah. They are not intending on praying to any other god but him.

OWH, if it helps you understand the position of non-JW Christians (and our former one), try and think of it in terms of the Greek gods. Imagine the Greek gods were real, and Zeus, the chief God, enacted a similar prohibition. Well, someone praying to Hades or Hera or Poseidon would be clearly breaking the rule. Hades, Hera, Poseidon are clearly not Zeus, and in no wise can they ever be considered to be Zeus.
Now, imagine Zeus came down from heaven in the form of a bull and did some godly deeds. Us humans make an idol of the bull and use it in our prayers. Is this a violation of the rule against praying to idols? I would think not, because the bull idol isn't a replacement for Zeus, it's a representation of him. We could say that Zeus doesn't want us praying to god idols that aren't him.

[Claire Evans]

How can you tell 100% that God can't be true?

I can't. As an atheist I say I do not believe in God. That doesn't mean I can't be wrong about it. I can however be very confident that the bible god isn't true. At least not the way the bible portrays it. But perhaps I am wrong. It's now up to God to prove me wrong. The bible has failed. Humans have failed. What's next if not God himself?

Santa Claus is not a supernatural being.

If the stories about him a true, then he most definitely would have to be a supernatural being. Being able to speed around the world and deliver all those presents, get down chimneys, make his reindeer fly, etc etc. Have you ever looked at the impossible feats Santa would have to perform do be able to do what he does? Those things could only be done via supernatural power.

Being able to do supernatural things is not he same as being a supernatural being. Some people can levitate. That doesn't mean they are supernatural beings, only that they have access to supernatural powers.

We cannot access Him through prayer.

There is no convincing evidence that any gods can be accessed through prayer either or that there are any beings at all that are supernatural. That seems all like wishful thinking to me, much like belief in Santa.

I've tried accessing God through prayer. I've prayed regularly all most of my life. It worked as well as writing letters to Santa Claus asking him for things to be put in my Christmas stockings and under the tree.

Actually some kids pray to Santa and get what they want. So perhaps Santa CAN be accessed by prayer?

The point of using the Santa analogy is to show that once you come to the conclusion that something isn't real you can't go back to that same belief. That doesn't mean that you might not come to a different belief about Santa. It is possible I could go from an Atheist to a believer again, but I would never be able to see God as the one I once worshipped.

I don't know what you prayed for. Did you give up because you didn't get the answer you wanted or didn't recognize the answer was from God? Did you not like the silence in between?

People make the mistake of thinking proof of God should come from miracles in the skies. That is not a new thing.

I make no presumptions on what God would do if he were real. However God would know exactly what would be needed for me to believe, don't you think? And being a loving and caring God would he not do whatever that thing was to help me to believe? Especially when I was in tears crying out in anguish to him looking for something to strengthen my faith.

As I said, I don't know the circumstances of your journey but you could have unwittingly put up a barrier. The true Christian journey is very hard. One must expect to suffer at the hands of Satan.

You want to talk as if God is real. However to me now, he is as real as Santa Claus was. It may be that there is some magical being called Santa who maybe doesn't operate in the same way he once did. Perhaps this Santa now has humans (like our parents) do his work on his behalf now? Much like God apparently does. Or perhaps Santa was just a man and the stories about him were exaggerated? Maybe he really did exist, but was an ordinary human with ordinary reindeers. The thing is I could not go back to believing in the Santa I believed in as a kid. It just would not be possible. Same when it comes to God. I could no go back to believing the bible version. That is what I think anyway. If I'm wrong, I'm sure God would be quite capable of showing me. However some stranger over the Internet is not God.

Talking to me as if God is real... that he is supernatural and answers prayers is no more convincing that trying to tell me that Santa is real.

Matthew 27:39-40

…39And those who passed by heaped abuse on Him, shaking their heads, 40and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross!�

Sure, this is the theology , doctrine and dogma sub-forum. You can quote scripture as authoritative, but for me it is unconvincing. I have followed the bible, believing it to be God's word. I did so for over 30 years of my life. I no longer see the bible as God's word.

Or perhaps you didn't understand it.

The other mistake you have made is that just because you have been disillusioned with the Bible, then suddenly that makes God fictitious.

I'm afraid that it's you that has made the mistake. My disbelief in God comes as a result of many things, not just the bible proving itself to be false. Many things make your God look fictitious.

Here is my list if you want to see it:

94 reasons why I no longer believe

My journey from Christian to Atheist took several years and wasn't done lightly. Many things were considered. The bible being unreliable is an issue, but part of many reasons I no longer believe.

Even if it could be determined that there really is a god, it would be an entirely different thing again to prove it's the god of the bible.

My stance is that I DO NOT BELIEVE in God. Proof is now required for me to believe God exists now. Misrepresenting my position is in no way going to help me to believe again.

I can address some things that can be addressed:

2. Realising that things I thought were from God were not from God at all. I had been kidding myself.

Satan can pose as God.

4. Realising that a lot of my beliefs were false.
5. Internet – Now faced with challenges. Can no longer live in Christian bubble anymore. Could not ignore logical arguments and challenges. Saw flaws in my belief system.

Beliefs that stem from the Bible being false don't make all what is said about God in the Bible is false. That is throwing the baby out with the bath water. I have examined the Bible in a logical way which makes me discard some things in the Bible. Also the history of the OT is just not the way people believe it is.

8. God has not notified anyone I know that I am no longer a believer. I have not been laid on anyone’s heart. Only some people know because I have told them.

Since when is the onus on God to inform anyone of your lack of belief?

9. Learning to think critical (after doing a degree) Meant I could no longer look at bible and just accept it without question.

I, as a Christ committed person, most certainly do not believe without question. I don't need a degree to question.

10. There is more evidence against God’s existence than there is for his existence.
11. God choosing to remain undetectable just looks way too much like a non-existent God.

Which God? God is a very vague term. Pantheists believe God is the universe. Sending Jesus into the world is not remaining undetectable. Some people can have a two way relationship with God. Detectable doesn't mean one discovering God in a lab.

12. If there is such thing as design, then the universes shows us malevolent and incompetent design which does not line up with bible claims.

God is not the only designer. It is clear that because it is an imperfect world, then another force that is malevolent to destroy perfection as come into play. And that is Satan.

13. When people claim that God did something for them, eg answering prayer, performing miracles… there are always natural explanations you could give. None of their so-called miracles can be shown to be supernatural.

How can there always be natural explanations when you don't even know of all the miracles performed. Have they all be documented?

This is all for now.

I know too much about how corrupted the OT is.

I hope you are aware of how corrupt the NT is too.

It's not infallible but one just needs to understand the gist of it like Jesus witnessing for the truth, dying for sins and then resurrecting.

In fact, it's enough to destroy someone's faith.

Many things helped destroy my faith, not just the OT. The NT also helped in a big way. Both Jesus's, Pauls and other NT teachings have helped destroy my faith. Reality has helped destroy my faith in God.

Can you give me an example?

Yet I had the foundation.

As did I. I had a very firm foundation in Jesus.

Perhaps you thought you did.

Once you have made spiritual contact with God, there is no going back.

Oh here we go with the No True Scotsman fallacy again. Be careful where you go here as you will lose all integrity with me if you continue with it. I believe I had a real spiritual connection with God. I believed I had a relationship with god. If I was only kidding myself, then you probably are too.

I was thinking aloud. Jesus because you think you are kidding yourself, it doesn't believe I probably am kidding myself. Perhaps I know something you don't.

If I was kidding myself, then it would be a joke for anyone to suggest I should ever try again. If 30 years of genuine and diligent faith was not enough to get a spiritual connection with God, then what is? How can any Christian who is convinced they have a spiritual connection with God be assured they do? Is it really that hard to establish a spiritual connection with God?

As I said, I don't know your background but it isn't prudent to assume just because someone thought they had diligent faith that it means they understood it. Even the disciples didn't understand Jesus until they had the Holy Spirit who is the Teacher.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 156 by onewithhim]



[center]
I'm going to use you[/center]

To sum it up: Jesus is the means by which Jehovah saves.

I don't know what that means... It's extremely vague.
Jesus is a method?

Can you explain how a person can be a MEANS TO AN END?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 155 by onewithhim]

I couldn't help myself.

Really? You sell yourself that short? You honestly had no choice but to put fingers to keyboard and type in an insult towards those who believe in the Trinity?

I've got a long way to go to really imitate the Lord Jesus, though, when I think about it, he did call people, for instance, "that old fox," and "hypocrites," "white-washed graves," "sons of snakes," etc.

Which is one reason why today I don't believe him to be all that special. If he really is divine in some fashion (whether an empowered agent of the one true God, or the one true God incarnated, or whatever), I'd expect that entity to not call people names, to lead by example.

I truly, deeply, believe that it IS ironclad that the doctrine of the Trinity is false. I have presented my arguments on these threads for years, and NO ONE has bothered to give a reply to what I posted, in a meaningful way. They just have said "oh you're wrong" and quoted the same old worn-out ambiguous verses, without explaining to me why the verses that I cited were off-base.

In my own case, I'm pointing out that from my point of view, the good book that you and the Trinitarian Christians pull from can support both points of view. As you point out here, I haven't actually attempted to rebut any of the verses you give.

Would you? Just explain why the following verses DO NOT show that Jesus is subordinate to the Father:

I don't advocate for either position. I'm not convinced of either. What I am convinced is that verses can be found to support both positions.

I think my earlier point still stands. In the event that God is real, and that Jesus is not God (capital G), then how come the average Christian is unaware of this? There's all of two JW halls in Ireland that I am aware of, (one of them a few minutes walk from where I live) and one of them only opens two days a week. Ireland has long been famous for its Christian population, yet apparently, God is just a-okay with us being the 'wrong' kind of Christian? Surely God can do more about spreading the correct teachings, if believing and following the correct teachings is so important.

IMHO, and from what I have read in the Bible, God is NOT alright with the majority of people living their lives ignorant of Jehovah's Witnesses and what they teach. Just because the majority of people are ignorant and worship other gods besides Jehovah, that doesn't mean that He is OK with that. Didn't Jesus himself indicate that the majority of people would be on the "broad road leading to destruction," and the minority---"FEW"---would be on the road leading to life? (Matthew 7:13,14)

That...sounds to me like he (God) actually IS alright with the majority of people being ignorant of JW teachings. That sounds like God or Jesus is predicting that most people would end up doomed to destruction, and he's like...meh, couldn't care less about it.

So in the event that JW doctrine is true, AND that God is NOT okay with the majority of people being ignorant of JW doctrine...how come JWs only number 8 odd million (according to Wikipedia)? What work is your god doing to rectify this situation? Doesn't it strike you as odd that a god as powerful as the one you worship is so lack-lustre when it comes to spreading his teachings?

Jesus never indicated that some people that were alive then would still be alive when he returned. He said at Matthew 16:28: "Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Did he mean that his Apostles would live over 2,000 years? Or did he mean that he would return soon after he spoke those words? NEITHER is correct.

Notice that immediately after he said that, he was transfigured before them

Doesn't this strike you as an odd thing to say? "I hereby make a prediction that some of you here will not die until I do this thing" proceeds to immediately do the thing

Yes, God allowed a major distortion of the truth to be carried on for over 1800 years. That is what the Scriptures attest to. The "weeds" of Matthew 13 would grow and practically choke out the "wheat" for a very long time.

Yes, and I ask why. A so called teacher of truth does not allow what is a lie to smother the truth for so long.

However, I see that you have no interest in even attempting to see things from my point of view

Far from it. It may have escaped your notice, but several times I have granted the possibility of what you say being true, and then asking follow up questions, like just a couple lines above. You say that God 'allows a major distortion of truth'. I allow for that hypothetically (in other words, seeing it from your point of view) and then ask a follow up question.
It would be literally impossible for me to ask those questions unless I saw things from your point of view.
--------
OnceConvinced says

I just can't see the Jehovah of the bible being as petty as what you are saying and if that's the JW perspective on Jehovah, then it's one I reject.

To be honest, OC...I can. After all, how many times does Bible God smite people for no adequately explored reason. There's a line in the OT where he's suddenly preparing to kill Abraham, just before Abraham circumcises his son, and literally NO explanation is given.
This is the same God who, because human-kind has fallen to evil, decides to drown the entire planet.

Now of course, if we were talking twenty years ago, back when I was a Christian, I would answer just like you did there. I would have praised God with as many positive adjectives as I could think of, and say "Pfft! God ignore me because I don't use the name Jehovah? He's not that ignorant!" (ignorant being local vernacular for rude, or anti-social)

Indeed. From what I was hearing and still do, there are Christians all over the place having Jehovah answer their prayers even though they didn't call him Jehovah.

Aye. As a child, I learned that Joan of Arc and the girl at Fatimata had divine visions (God directly and the Virgin Mary respectively).

For Christians who believe in the trinity, none of these scriptures are a problem, because when they pray to Jesus, they are intending on praying to Jehovah. They are not intending on praying to any other god but him.

Not only that, but it is how they follow the teaching that Jesus 'is the Way, the Truth and the Life, none cometh to the Father but through me'. I'm scratching my noggin here trying to figure out a way for a Christian believer to pray to Jehovah God without having Jesus involved in the prayer in some way. How does a Jehovah's Witness pray? Do they mention Jesus in their prayers? Direct their prayers towards Jesus? Towards God, with Jesus being a conduit?
Unlike what onewithhim says, I am open to the possibility of both a Trinity, and not-a-Trinity. I don't say one or the other, and it's ironclad.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 87 by Claire Evans]



[center]A challenge[/center]

Santa Claus is not a supernatural being.

Consider yourself officially challenged to back up that assertion or drop it.

Cheers.

[OnceConvinced]

(1) John 5:19...."The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

This verse is a perfect illustration of the trinity. Jesus is simply another facet of Jehovah. You could say that Jesus was the mouth maybe or the hand of Jehovah say. Jehovah is like the brain. So Jesus can only do what the brain instructs him to.

Also bear in mind that Jesus is God in human form and as such did not have the godly powers of Jehovah. He was stuck in a human frame and as such could only do so much. So any miracles were as a result of Jehovah’s power. Once again we see a perfect illustration of the trinity. Jesus was simply a human vessel for Jehovah to work through in a slightly different way than what he would do otherwise.

Also note verse 22-23:
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

What do you think honouring the son as you would the father would mean?

(2) John 6:38...."I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me."

Once again we see an illustration of the trinity here. Jesus is like the hands and the voice of Jehovah. He can only do what the brain instructs him to do. He is not an independent god working on his own. He is PART of Jehovah, performing actions on Jehovah’s part.

How was Jesus able to perform miracles? Not because he was a separate god, but because he was part of Jehovah, acting as a human vessel to perform miracles. If he was just a solo entity, he would not have been able to perform those miracles. As part of the trinity though, he can.

(3) John 12:49...."I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." If Jesus was God, would he need to take orders from anyone?

Same as before. Jesus works as God’s hand on the earth in human form. What he does is instructed by the brain (Jehovah). This verse is another perfect example of how the trinity works.

Also note this very important verse 44
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

So any Christian will understand that this verse is saying that when we pray to or worship Jesus we are actually praying to and worshipping Jehovah.

This verse alone totally crushes your arguments that praying to Jesus is sinful or idolatrous. It is from the exact chapter that you quote to try to claim that praying to Jesus is sinful and idolatrous.

Verse 45 says:
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

So what this is saying is that even if we address Jesus himself or envisage that we praying to him we are in fact envisaging Jehovah!

It seems you are taking scriptures out of context to back up a belief, which as we can see here in verse 44-45 is completely wrong.

Verse 50 backs up my argument even further. It says that anything Jesus says to us is from Jehovah himself. So if we are to pray to Jesus, anything he says to us is from Jehovah. So Jesus is in fact acting as a mouthpiece for Jehovah which illustrates the trinity perfectly.

4) John 14:28...."The Father is greater than I am

Of course the father is greater. Jesus is only the human version of God. Part of Jehovah in human form. He is limited. As a believer in the trinity one would understand that Jesus is a limited being and not as great as Jehovah.

Anyone who doubts the trinity needs to look at an earlier verse in John 14. Verse 6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

One may even argue that to speak to Jehovah you actually do have to go through Jesus, however I don’t believe that to be the case. This verse however does quite clearly show us that Jesus saw himself as a vessel of communication between human and Jehovah, which one would expect if they understand the trinity.

Verse 9 also states:
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father

Again he is showing us here that he is part of the trinity.

Vs 10:
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Once again a perfect example of the trinity.

In v15 he says:
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Whose commandments? Why Jehovah’s of course! Jesus is saying they are HIS OWN commandments. That is because he speaks as part of the trinity! ON behalf of Jehovah himself!

Verse 16-17 the holy spirit is mentioned. Then what does Jesus say in vs 18?
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Who is the comforter? The Holy spirit of course. He just mentioned him. Then he says “I will come to you.� Who is coming to you? The holy spirit. Jesus is speaking on behalf of the holy spirit too. Why? Because the holy spirit is also part of the trinity.

Vs 20
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Sounds very much like he’s endorsing the trinity to me. He’s speaking of himself, Jehovah and the holy spirit as if they are one.

Vs 23 once again shows a clear picture of the trinity:
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

This entire chapter seems to be screaming “trinity�, yet you take one scripture out of context to try to say the trinity is false

." (It should be noted that it was not just when Jesus was on Earth that this was the case; even after he returned to heaven "the head of Christ is God"---I Corinth.11:3.)

What a perfect illustration of the trinity here. Jehovah is the head. Where the brain resides. The controller for the rest of the body. Jesus is simply part of the body. It cannot possibly be greater than the head.

(5) John 17:3...."This is eternal life, that they may know You [the Father], the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

Reading the entire chapter shows us more than just some human sent to speak on Jehovah’s part. But bear in mind that from the point of view of the trinity, this is God in a human body acting as the hand and mouth of Jehovah. He is limited. He does not have access to the power of Jehovah and thus had to pray to him as a human would. No doubt that changes once he returns to Heaven.

(6) John 20:17b...."I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to MY GOD and your God."

Nothing about this verse or any of your other verses contradict the concept of the trinity. In fact they scream out “trinity�. It seems the problem you may have is that you don’t actually understand the trinity. I hope that my posts have helped in some way to clarify it. Jesus is not expected to be the supernatural god that Jehovah is. He is a limited part of Jehovah, part that was sent to earth in human form, and as such had human restrictions. However its quite clear that he is meant to provide a method of communication between human and Jehovah.

[onewithhim]

his name is very unimportant. In the bible he is referred to under many names. Jehovah is simply just one of them.

His name is surely the least important thing?

If God is not a three-faced God but is just one Person, how can we figure that praying to a trinity of Gods is OK?

I don't think you really grasp what the trinity is. It's not three different gods. It's one god. When you pray to one you are praying to Jehovah. You don't have to understand this, Onewithhim. All that matters is that Jehovah understands.

The Bible indicates that He is one individual. p

Yes and the trinity is one individual. It's just three aspects of that one individual. You pray to one you pray to the entire thing.

Even Jesus said that the Father was an individual and He deserved all the glory and the worship, as God Almighty. Jesus NEVER claimed to be God, and there has been enough discussion on these threads to confirm that, if you have been following any of them.

Jesus also understood that it's the intentions of the person that counts. Jesus also had many different names attributed to him in the bible. Would he be upset if you got his name wrong? Would he ignore you if you did?

I just can't see the Jehovah of the bible being as petty as what you are saying and if that's the JW perspective on Jehovah, then it's one I reject. From what I can see in the bible, Jehovah is not as rigid as what you guys seem to be suggesting.

Jehovah is not referred to in the Bible as having "many different names." He has inspired the Bible writers to present his name as YHWH only---translated most commonly as "Jehovah" or "Yahweh.". This name, YHWH, appears in the original Hebrew/Aramaic text 7,000 times, and ONLY that name is the name that Jehovah says relates directly to him. To view the Tetragrammaton, YHWH, click on this site:

www.eliyah.com/tetragrm.html


IMHO, it is you who have not grasped what the Trinity is. In its very name, "trinity," it is revealed just how many Persons make up this version of "God." They are three different Persons, supposedly, who are altogether one God. If they all make up one God, then how can a trinitarian say the following?

The Father is God
The Son is God.
The H.S. is God.

Add them up. There are THREE Gods. Trinitarians are worshiping a polytheistic god.

Shouldn't we know just which the true God is? "Three" or "one"? He does care how we worship him. It matters to him.



You say the Trinity is one individual. Then please explain to me why Jesus would pray to himself. And how could Jesus be on the earth and hear his own voice from heaven saying "this is my Son in whom I am well pleased"? Why would he keep saying that God was in heaven when he, Jesus, was here on the earth? If the Trinity is ONE individual, tell me how that would be feasible.


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