Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 191 by ttruscott]

Do you have a scripture for the "three parts of God" theory? The reason I ask is because I can't help but think of Deutronomy 6:4 that says Jehovah (the Father) is ONE God and not one third of ONE.

Your understanding is confusing YHWH as the Father of the NT because HE is referred to as our Father in the OT when our Creator is meant ...

Excuse me?!

Are you suggesting that the God of Abraham that uttered those words is NOT the same Father Jesus called on?

Geee, I think I said that....IF the name YHWH is taken as to refer to just GOD the Father, which I disagree with.

If he had said Jesus and the Holy spirit and I are "one" I could understand, but speaking of Himself (YHWH) he cannot be one he can only be one-third.

NOT if YHWH is the name for GOD in total UNITY and ONEness and does not refer to only one Person... Why you reject the Unity interpretation as not material to me nor is what proof you need to accept it. I was told in the Spirit to accept it and I do, unproven as it is.

I did not study my way to this doctrine.

[OnceConvinced]

I want to clean up your language a bit: one God with three different parts. Each part performs a different task....I think most Trinitarians (though I admit, not all) would accept: one GOD of three Persons each Person with a special focus but they share tasks sometimes. as a bit sharper in detail, no?

I agree.

It's great that there is the occasional thing you and I agree on Ted.

I know I should be careful not to say that all Trinitarians see the trinity the same way, but when I look at the picture that Onewithhim has painted, I can't help but see a strawman being erected on her part. If one creates a strawman, then they can then proceed to knock it down and claim the trinity to be polytheistic or idolatry.

What I find insulting in OneWithHim's insistances is that she is trying to tell me what it is that I believed as a Christian. If one is to tell me that as a Christian I worshipped three separate gods rather than one, I would find that extremely presumptuous and wrong, as that is not how I viewed the trinity and I most certainly did not see them as three gods. It bamboozles me that people like Jehovah's Witnesses have the audacity to think that that they can dictate what it is that I as a Christian believed. I know what I believed and I believed I was praying to one single god. Jehovah (although I didn't call him by that old-fashioned name).

Rightly or wrongly, I believed Jesus to be part of Jehovah. If I am wrong about that, then I see no problem with that, as Jehovah was well aware of my heart and my intentions. He knew that it was him that I was trying to pray too. I guess I should be glad that Jehovah is not actually a Jehovah's witness. He is a lot more graceful.

[JehovahsWitness]

I did not study my way to this doctrine.

That much is evident.

I was told in the Spirit to accept it and I do, unproven as it is.

Are you aware there are both good and bad spirits?

[onewithhim]

IMHO, it is you who have not grasped what the Trinity is. In its very name, "trinity," it is revealed just how many Persons make up this version of "God." They are three different Persons, supposedly, who are altogether one God. If they all make up one God, then how can a trinitarian say the following?

The Father is God
The Son is God.
The H.S. is God.

Add them up. There are THREE Gods. Trinitarians are worshiping a polytheistic god.

Nope, that is not the case at all. You seem to be making up your own version of the Trinity. No Trinitarian sees it that way. Those who understand the trinity understand that it is one God with three different parts. Each part performs a different task.

Don't you think a Trinitarian should know what he is worshipping? No Trinitarian thinks of themselves as praying to three different Gods when they pray.

You say the Trinity is one individual. Then please explain to me why Jesus would pray to himself. And how could Jesus be on the earth and hear his own voice from heaven saying "this is my Son in whom I am well pleased"? Why would he keep saying that God was in heaven when he, Jesus, was here on the earth? If the Trinity is ONE individual, tell me how that would be feasible.

Simple. This part of God is on Earth in a human body and as such is restricted to being human. Thus he has to pray just like any other human if he wishes to communicate with the father. If he was sharing the same consciousness, he would hardly be considered human, would he?

So for God to be human, he has to have the same handicap as any other human. The only difference here is that Jehovah used the human body to exhibit his power.

Of course one who understands the concept of the trinity would not need to ask the questions you are asking.

Yes I would need to ask these questions....and they have not been given satisfactory answers, answers that thinking minds can accept. It seems to me that trinity-believers are quite confused about what they are believing.

For example: I have asked most trinity-believers:

Is the Father "God"? They answer YES.

Is the Son "God"? They answer YES.

Is the H.S. "God"? They answer YES.


Each one is God. Now add them up.

[onewithhim]

(IDOL: "An image or anything used as an object of worship in place of the true God."

Crosses and effigies of Jesus are not objects of worship in place of a true god. Unless of course someone is praying to them, thinking that those objects ARE God.

IDOLATRY: "Strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form, whether the images to which homage is paid are symbolical representations of the true God or of the false divinities which have been made the objects of worship in His stead.")

Praying to Jesus is
1) Not praying to a deity in visible form.
2) Not considered a symbolic representation of Jehovah.
3) Is not necessarily the focus of ones prayer or worship.
4) Usually an attempt to pray to Jehovah.

You haven't answered my question: "Then why make images AT ALL to USE in worship, even if you are not praying directly TO it?"

You would have to ask them that. I've done no such thing myself. Maybe one of our Catholic members may be able to enlighten you.

I notice though that most Christians build churches. If we go by your reasoning, then building a church is also idolatry. Do JWs build churches?

Just going to a church and congregating together, doing church activities would also be idolatry too, going by your logic.

Just because someone builds something to honour their god does not make it idol worship.

Then what did Jehovah mean when he said the following?

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God." (Ex.20:4,5, NASB)

Never mind what it does NOT say. Tell me what those verses are actually saying.

Thank you.

[onewithhim]

Jehovah is not referred to in the Bible as having "many different names." He has inspired the Bible writers to present his name as YHWH only---translated most commonly as "Jehovah" or "Yahweh.". This name, YHWH, appears in the original Hebrew/Aramaic text 7,000 times, and ONLY that name is the name that Jehovah says relates directly to him. To view the Tetragrammaton, YHWH, click on this site:

Names of God in the old testament:

Abba Father
Adonai
Alpha & Omega
Beginning and the End
Bread of life
El Shaddai
El Elyon
El Olam
Elohim
Father
God
Jehovah
The Light
Lord
Lord of Lords
King of Kings
Morning Star
Prince of Peace
Qanna
The Rock
Rose of Sharon
The Word
Yahweh

Jehovah himself has numerous different versions of his name.

Not so. Every one of those "names" on your list are really NOT names, but are TITLES. Only two of them are God's personal name---"Jehovah" and "Yahweh."

None of the others are God's personal name. And "Jehovah" and "Yahweh" come from the same Hebrew word: YHWH, the Tetragrammaton, which I gave you a link to click on and see what it looks like.

You will see that Tetragrammaton 7,000 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.

IMHO, you have fallen for some very precarious baloney. Would you reconsider?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 156 by onewithhim]



[center]
I'm going to use you[/center]

To sum it up: Jesus is the means by which Jehovah saves.

I don't know what that means... It's extremely vague.
Jesus is a method?

Can you explain how a person can be a MEANS TO AN END?

Sure. Your sister calls your dad and says, "Please give me 100 bucks! I need it for thus-and-so." Your dad says OK and sends your big brother to give it to her. Your big brother was the means by which your dad gave the money to your sister.

Your dad was the true source of the money for your sister. He used your big brother to actually carry through on his determination to give the money to her.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 155 by onewithhim]

I couldn't help myself.

Really? You sell yourself that short? You honestly had no choice but to put fingers to keyboard and type in an insult towards those who believe in the Trinity?

I've got a long way to go to really imitate the Lord Jesus, though, when I think about it, he did call people, for instance, "that old fox," and "hypocrites," "white-washed graves," "sons of snakes," etc.

Which is one reason why today I don't believe him to be all that special. If he really is divine in some fashion (whether an empowered agent of the one true God, or the one true God incarnated, or whatever), I'd expect that entity to not call people names, to lead by example.

I truly, deeply, believe that it IS ironclad that the doctrine of the Trinity is false. I have presented my arguments on these threads for years, and NO ONE has bothered to give a reply to what I posted, in a meaningful way. They just have said "oh you're wrong" and quoted the same old worn-out ambiguous verses, without explaining to me why the verses that I cited were off-base.

In my own case, I'm pointing out that from my point of view, the good book that you and the Trinitarian Christians pull from can support both points of view. As you point out here, I haven't actually attempted to rebut any of the verses you give.

Would you? Just explain why the following verses DO NOT show that Jesus is subordinate to the Father:

I don't advocate for either position. I'm not convinced of either. What I am convinced is that verses can be found to support both positions.

I think my earlier point still stands. In the event that God is real, and that Jesus is not God (capital G), then how come the average Christian is unaware of this? There's all of two JW halls in Ireland that I am aware of, (one of them a few minutes walk from where I live) and one of them only opens two days a week. Ireland has long been famous for its Christian population, yet apparently, God is just a-okay with us being the 'wrong' kind of Christian? Surely God can do more about spreading the correct teachings, if believing and following the correct teachings is so important.

IMHO, and from what I have read in the Bible, God is NOT alright with the majority of people living their lives ignorant of Jehovah's Witnesses and what they teach. Just because the majority of people are ignorant and worship other gods besides Jehovah, that doesn't mean that He is OK with that. Didn't Jesus himself indicate that the majority of people would be on the "broad road leading to destruction," and the minority---"FEW"---would be on the road leading to life? (Matthew 7:13,14)

That...sounds to me like he (God) actually IS alright with the majority of people being ignorant of JW teachings. That sounds like God or Jesus is predicting that most people would end up doomed to destruction, and he's like...meh, couldn't care less about it.

So in the event that JW doctrine is true, AND that God is NOT okay with the majority of people being ignorant of JW doctrine...how come JWs only number 8 odd million (according to Wikipedia)? What work is your god doing to rectify this situation? Doesn't it strike you as odd that a god as powerful as the one you worship is so lack-lustre when it comes to spreading his teachings?

Jesus never indicated that some people that were alive then would still be alive when he returned. He said at Matthew 16:28: "Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Did he mean that his Apostles would live over 2,000 years? Or did he mean that he would return soon after he spoke those words? NEITHER is correct.

Notice that immediately after he said that, he was transfigured before them

Doesn't this strike you as an odd thing to say? "I hereby make a prediction that some of you here will not die until I do this thing" proceeds to immediately do the thing

Yes, God allowed a major distortion of the truth to be carried on for over 1800 years. That is what the Scriptures attest to. The "weeds" of Matthew 13 would grow and practically choke out the "wheat" for a very long time.

Yes, and I ask why. A so called teacher of truth does not allow what is a lie to smother the truth for so long.

However, I see that you have no interest in even attempting to see things from my point of view

Far from it. It may have escaped your notice, but several times I have granted the possibility of what you say being true, and then asking follow up questions, like just a couple lines above. You say that God 'allows a major distortion of truth'. I allow for that hypothetically (in other words, seeing it from your point of view) and then ask a follow up question.
It would be literally impossible for me to ask those questions unless I saw things from your point of view.
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OnceConvinced says

I just can't see the Jehovah of the bible being as petty as what you are saying and if that's the JW perspective on Jehovah, then it's one I reject.

To be honest, OC...I can. After all, how many times does Bible God smite people for no adequately explored reason. There's a line in the OT where he's suddenly preparing to kill Abraham, just before Abraham circumcises his son, and literally NO explanation is given.
This is the same God who, because human-kind has fallen to evil, decides to drown the entire planet.

Now of course, if we were talking twenty years ago, back when I was a Christian, I would answer just like you did there. I would have praised God with as many positive adjectives as I could think of, and say "Pfft! God ignore me because I don't use the name Jehovah? He's not that ignorant!" (ignorant being local vernacular for rude, or anti-social)

Indeed. From what I was hearing and still do, there are Christians all over the place having Jehovah answer their prayers even though they didn't call him Jehovah.

Aye. As a child, I learned that Joan of Arc and the girl at Fatimata had divine visions (God directly and the Virgin Mary respectively).

For Christians who believe in the trinity, none of these scriptures are a problem, because when they pray to Jesus, they are intending on praying to Jehovah. They are not intending on praying to any other god but him.

Not only that, but it is how they follow the teaching that Jesus 'is the Way, the Truth and the Life, none cometh to the Father but through me'. I'm scratching my noggin here trying to figure out a way for a Christian believer to pray to Jehovah God without having Jesus involved in the prayer in some way. How does a Jehovah's Witness pray? Do they mention Jesus in their prayers? Direct their prayers towards Jesus? Towards God, with Jesus being a conduit?
Unlike what onewithhim says, I am open to the possibility of both a Trinity, and not-a-Trinity. I don't say one or the other, and it's ironclad.

So you wouldn't feel right about calling a man who had John the Baptist's head cut off "that old fox"? You don't feel that the religious leaders who treated the people like less than animals and who constantly sought to kill Jesus deserve to be called "hypocrites" and "sons of snakes"? Can you explain why? Jesus stuck up for people who were getting a raw deal. I think if you were someone who was suffering, you would want someone like him on your side.

There are 119 Kingdom Halls in Ireland. I can assure you that JWs throughout Ireland are telling the people everywhere that God is not a Trinity. Last year there were 65 people baptized, a 2% increase over the previous year, so JWs are slowly growing. Some people do listen to us. I think that God is doing quite well there in Ireland. Probably "your average Christian" doesn't know the truth about God because they shut the door in the JWs' faces or don't bother to answer the door at all.

You're way off about God not caring about what people perceive to be the truth. Jesus said that there would be the majority on the broad road to destruction, but he never indicated that that was OK with him or God. Jesus cried over the city of Jerusalem, because they would not accept him. (Matt.23:37,38)

Jehovah is anything but "lacklustre" in spreading his teachings. Check out www.jw.org to see just how things are going in terms of the preaching work. The trinitarian churches of Christendom have a lot to do with getting their people to refuse to listen to us. That is the main reason that people don't know the truth.

As for "Jehovah" answering prayers all over the place even though the people weren't praying to him....there are other gods in the spirit realm you know. They are good at answering people's prayers---people who aren't praying to Jehovah, but to a trinity of Gods.

You ask how a JW prays. We always pray to the Father, Jehovah, and we do so through Jesus. We offer the prayer in Jesus' name, and we can do so because he gave his life for mankind. It is because of him that we can freely approach Jehovah.

[tam]

Peace to you both!

OWH is correct in that most of those are titles (descriptions of what God OR Christ are - because some belong to Christ and some belong to God, and some belong to both of them). But none of those are personal names. There is only one personal name of God (of which you list two translations - both stemming from YHWH).

Abba Father - abba means father and is a title, but not a name

Adonai - means Lord and is a title, but not a name

Alpha & Omega - title (and of course a description of what God is - I am the Alpha and the Omega)

Beginning and the End - title

Bread of life - description of something CHRIST is

El Shaddai - Title - God Almighty (conventional translation)

El Elyon - Title - God Most High

El Olam - Title - Everlasting God (or something similar perhaps)

Elohim - Title

Father - Title

God - Title

Jehovah - a traditional translation of God's name, from the tetragrammaton (YHWH)

The Light - Title (and description, as titles are also descriptions) for Christ

Lord - Title

Lord of Lords - Title (for Christ... of all except His Father; and also used in the OT for God)

King of Kings - same as above

Morning Star - Title (for Christ - Bright Morning Star, but I do not recall seeing that anywhere as a title for God)

Prince of Peace - Title for Christ

Qanna - haven't heard of that one

The Rock - Title (Christ is the Rock, the foundation/cornerstone)

Rose of Sharon - have not heard this one, but it sounds like a title, not a name

The Word - Christ, not a personal name but what He is

Yahweh - as OWH said, another translation of God's name (YHWH)



I think your list forgets Jah, which is God's name; the shortened form of God's name, and which name appears in the names of many of the prophets, including in His Son's name as well. Many names of the prophets also include the name EL. To name a couple:

ELiJAH - which means my God is Jah

IsraEL

JoEL

JeremIAH

EzekiEL

And of course HalleluJAH - Praise Jah


Jaheshua - though pronounced with a "Y" sound instead of a hard "J" sound: Yaheshua. Which eventually became Yeshua as the name of God was removed/forgotten/deemed unimportant/etc - accidentally or on purpose or a bit of both. So that the name of God was no longer being shown in the name of the Son who came in the Name of God.

Yaheshua - > Y'eshua (where Y' is short for Yah) - > Yeshua


Meaning Jah saves/savior of Jah



Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 179 by OnceConvinced]

I don't see the trinity in any of that. I don't understand how you can. Jesus called the Father "my God" even after he returned to heaven (Rev.3:12), and all of the "being one with God" is explained clearly as merely being united with Him, and in agreement, just as the disciples would be "one" with Jesus and the Father. You skipped right over that. (John 17:20-23)

You say Jehovah is the "brain" and Jesus is the "hand," or some such configuration. If the hand follows the instructions of the brain, then how is it that they are EQUAL?