The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 142 by tam]


"That being said, He has not yet established His Kingdom upon the earth; this is yet to come, when Christ (the King) returns. And He has not yet done so; there will be no question of it when He returns, as every eye will see Him (Rev 1:7). "

He has already come the second time to those who were looking for him:

Hebrews 9:281599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
28 So Christ was once offered to take away the sins of [a]many, and unto them that look for him, shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Lord Christ does not need physical body to be seen/recognized. He has revealed Himself as the Word - Truth, and we see Him whenever we hear His words. His Kingdom is and will be coming continously for as long as there is earth.

Hebrews 9 does not say that Christ has already come the second time. Your point fails.

You are correct, though, that Christ does not need a physical body to be "seen" with eyes of understanding. His Kingdom does exist now, but not completely over the earth. Christ has taken his throne as King, but for now only for his church, or, what we like to call his Congregation, his "organization." He leads it in witnessing to everyone on Earth about the time, coming soon, when he will take over rulership of the entire earth. After Armageddon the Thousand-Year Reign will start.

Did you not see in the Scriptures where Christ will hand back the kingdom to his God and Father after the Thousand Years are over? (I Corinthians 15:24-28)

[onewithhim]

What is God's kingdom? God's Kingdom is a heavenly government.

But a Kingdom does not consist only of a government. A Kingdom consists of a King (government) and subjects (citizens).

Christ is the King, of course. He makes His Bride (all who are anointed with holy spirit - and all Christians are anointed with holy spirit) king-priests as well, and they will reign with Him for a thousand years.

But this Kingdom also has subjects - people from the nations who are invited into the Kingdom as well (on the basis of how they have treated even a least one of His brothers, showing that the law - of love - is upon their hearts; see the sheep, from the sheep and the goats parable).



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I agree with everything you said....except your statement that ALL Christians are anointed. Not all Christians are going to heaven. Most of us will be here on Earth forever.

"Those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth....The righteous will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." (Psalm 37:9,29)

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm not sure why you snipped all that came before that comment, but if we are going by the definition that you provided, He is a King; therefore, His government would be a monarchical government.

Feel free to go by any definition you want - dictionaries are useful .

(From what I can see your objection is with me saying God's kingdom is a government instead of saying God's kingdom is "a type" of government with a king at its head. If so let this be a clarification.

What is God's Kingdom? God's kingdom is a [type of] governement; it has a king at its head.



I apologize for not being more precise in my terminology

Anyhow... are you saying (correct me if I am wrong) that the God's government and God's kingdom are NOT the same thing. Is that right?

JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 151 by JehovahsWitness]

Checkpoint wrote:

That has to fit into what some folk insist are certain truths as to how it governs, where it governs from, who does the governing, and when that governing started.

You commented

I am not surprised you shy away from expaining who is in the kingdom and what it does. This is regretable since the kingdom was the main theme of Jesus preaching work.

Just what I said, you are so predictable and can always be relied on to tell us "certain truths" that do not reflect what scripture conveys.

You added

Don't worry, Jehovah's Witnesses will continue to preach the kingdom while you can concentrate on speaking about your own salvation, or Christian rock music or whatever other subject "churchless christians" like to wax lyrical about.

Yes, you will do what you do best, "wax lyrical about" whatever toes your party line with its mixture of truth, half truth, and falsehood.

Wow! This isn't like your usual self, Checkpoint. You have agreed with quite a bit that JWs wax lyrical about. What is so hard to accept about what JW and I are trying to explain about the Kingdom?

[onewithhim]

I am not surprised you shy away from expaining who is in the kingdom and what it does. This is regretable since the kingdom was the main theme of Jesus preaching work.

Just what I said, you are so predictable and can always be relied on to tell us "certain truths" that do not reflect what scripture conveys.

And are you attempting to imply that the KINGDOM was not the main theme of Jesus' preaching work?

No, not at all, don't worry.

Mark 1:

14 After the arrest of John, Jesus went into Galilee and proclaimed the gospel of God 15 “The time is fulfilled, he said, “and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Matthew 10:

7 And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.

Luke 10:

1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go.
2 And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.

8 Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you.
9 Heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’
10 But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,
11 ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’

17The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!�
18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.

20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.�

21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
22 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.�

Very good! So why say that JWs teach falsehoods?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 161 by tam]

It is unreal that you are making such an issue of Kingdom vs. government. The main point that JW and I are making is that God's kingdom is a bona-fide government, as is indicated in the Scriptures. Sometimes the terms are used interchangeably, as in Isaiah 9:6,7.

"...Unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder:...Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever." (American Standard Version)


The Kingdom is not in one's heart, it is something that is as real as the governmental set-up that the United States has.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 126 by onewithhim]

2) If it [the kingdom of God] has always been here, why is the world still suffering?

Because God wanted a people who worshiped and loved Him because He had captured their hearts and were not robots.

Therefore He gave to man freedom to choose to do so or not do so.

That is exactly right, checkpoint. That is what we have been saying all along. However, you are dodging the question. God's Kingdom is said in the Bible to cause God's will to be done on Earth as it is in heaven. It will cause suffering and death to cease. If the Kingdom has been functioning to its fullest all along, why is there still suffering and death? (Matthew 6:9,10; Revelation 21:4)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 126 by onewithhim]

3) What does it actually mean that there will be new heavens and a new earth?

The end of suffering and death, a completely new experience and reality, including God dwelling with man, that none of us really knows.

What little we do know is a few scriptures; primarily Isaiah 65:17-25 and Revelation 21 and 22.

Is it what you are waiting for?

You've got it down reasonably well, superior to what most people say about it.

Won't God's dwelling with man be along the same line as what He had been doing, for example, in ancient times with His people, when they were choosing to be obedient? He said that he would be abiding WITH them. We know it wasn't literal, as Solomon so nicely summed it all up at I Kings chapter 8. In verse 27 Solomon stated that God could not literally live on the earth, and then many statements that He was in heaven (verses 30-49). So how could Jehovah be in heaven but at the same time be dwelling WITH Israel?

"I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God. (Exodus 29:45, American Standard Version)

We have the scripture that says that God cannot dwell on the earth, and we have the scripture that says that He will dwell with Israel. HOW does God live WITH humans and at the same time remain in heaven? How has He done it in ages past? It will be the very SAME when Revelation 21:1-4 is fulfilled. He will not literally come down to the earth and live here on this planet.

Just like Jesus saying that he is WITH his disciples until the end of the system of things (or "the age"). (Matt.28:20) Is he here on the planet literally? No, the Bible says that he has been in heaven since the first century. Yet he is WITH us.


How is this speaking falsehoods, checkpoint? Please explain.

[tam]

What is God's kingdom? God's Kingdom is a heavenly government.

But a Kingdom does not consist only of a government. A Kingdom consists of a King (government) and subjects (citizens).

Christ is the King, of course. He makes His Bride (all who are anointed with holy spirit - and all Christians are anointed with holy spirit) king-priests as well, and they will reign with Him for a thousand years.

But this Kingdom also has subjects - people from the nations who are invited into the Kingdom as well (on the basis of how they have treated even a least one of His brothers, showing that the law - of love - is upon their hearts; see the sheep, from the sheep and the goats parable).



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I agree with everything you said....except your statement that ALL Christians are anointed. Not all Christians are going to heaven. Most of us will be here on Earth forever.

It is only jw theology that divides Christians into anointed and non-anointed classes; and then associates the anointed with heaven and non-anointed with earth. Christ did not teach this. But we have had this discussion many times. Regardless, thank you for acknowledging that a Kingdom does not consist only of a government, but also of subjects. I am assuming that you expect (or hope) to be one of these subjects, right?

"Those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth....

Do the anointed not hope in God?

The righteous will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." (Psalm 37:9,29)

Are the anointed not righteous?



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

(edited to fix quote box)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 126 by onewithhim]

4) What do these two scriptures mean: Isaiah 9:6,7; Daniel 2:44 ?

Interesting question that invites an answer, one which takes the scriptural and historical context into consideration.

Isaiah 9:

1 But there will be no gloom for her who was in anguish. In the former time He brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time He has made glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.

2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light;
those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shone.

3 You have multiplied the nation; You have increased its joy;
they rejoice before You as with joy at the harvest,
as they are glad when they divide the spoil.
4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor,
You have broken as on the day of Midian.
5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire.

6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;
and the government is upon his shoulder,
and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of YHVH of hosts will do this.

This passage is clearly referring to the throne of David and to Jesus of Nazareth in Galilee.

He is the child born, the son given, establishing and heading a government, under God, that continues to increase from "this time forth" (of the setting of the prophecy), and will be "forevermore".

Daniel 2:

34 As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
43 As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.

44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold.

A great God has made known to the king what shall come to pass. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.

The meaning is similar to what Isaiah 9 conveys to us.

God's kingdom will be set up "in the days of those kings", and will grow or increase from a stone "cut by no human hand" into a great mountain to fill the earth and last forever.

We know the stone is Jesus, and we know "those kings" represented the Roman empire that was ruling during the time of Jesus.

It was to one of them that Jesus talked of the kingdom, saying "my kingdom is not of this world".

I'm sorry, you are not very clear. "From this time forth" would be when the Son's Kingdom was actually instituted. It does not necessarily refer to the time when Isaiah wrote the prophecy. Could you explain what else that prophecy means? How is the government on his shoulder, and how can peace be prevailing under this government at this time when we do not see peace?

We know that when the "stone" hits the great image of Daniel chapter 2, God's Kingdom will destroy all of men's governments and it will be in effect forever. How is it in effect now? Men's governments are still operating.

"Those kings" represent not only Rome but also Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. In other words, ALL of the governments of men that have had great effect on God's people, right down to today. The governments of today that the great image represents in its feet are off-shoots of the Roman Empire, which Great Britain and the United States of America technically are.

Could you be more specific in your answers so that others can understand what you are meaning?