The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 173 by 2timothy316]


"Jesus said,
"Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." Luke 21:24

Another translation for the word 'trampled' is 'under foot'.

What are is the 'appointed times of the nations'? Why is Jerusalem, the seat of God's rulership, under the foot of the nations and for how long?"

This could be talking about complete destruction of Jerusalem; Revelation talks about filthy Jerusalem which now it is where blood has and is being spilled.

The Holy Jerusalem descends from heaven as it clearly describes its streets of gold, no need for the sun as the light of God/wisdom will be their light - all spiritual significance.

You are right that the description of Holy Jerusalem "descending" from heaven is "all spiritual significance." It is not literal. Could you answer the question about how is Jerusalem (where God's representative had his throne) under the foot of the nations and why for so long?

[onewithhim]

What is God's kingdom? God's Kingdom is a heavenly government.

But a Kingdom does not consist only of a government. A Kingdom consists of a King (government) and subjects (citizens).

Christ is the King, of course. He makes His Bride (all who are anointed with holy spirit - and all Christians are anointed with holy spirit) king-priests as well, and they will reign with Him for a thousand years.

But this Kingdom also has subjects - people from the nations who are invited into the Kingdom as well (on the basis of how they have treated even a least one of His brothers, showing that the law - of love - is upon their hearts; see the sheep, from the sheep and the goats parable).



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I agree with everything you said....except your statement that ALL Christians are anointed. Not all Christians are going to heaven. Most of us will be here on Earth forever.

It is only jw theology that divides Christians into anointed and non-anointed classes; and then associates the anointed with heaven and non-anointed with earth. Christ did not teach this. But we have had this discussion many times. Regardless, thank you for acknowledging that a Kingdom does not consist only of a government, but also of subjects. I am assuming that you expect (or hope) to be one of these subjects, right?

"Those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth....

Do the anointed not hope in God?

The righteous will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." (Psalm 37:9,29)

Are the anointed not righteous?



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Christ absolutely taught that there would be rulers and there would be the ruled. He called the rulers his "little flock," and the ruled his "other sheep." (Luke 12:32; John 10:16) That there are two destinations for Christians is evident at Revelation 7:4 and 9. We have talked about this before and were not able to come to a mutual agreement, except that we have to agree to disagree.

It's rather counter-productive to a discussion to totally blind-side it by not answering a simple question as to what Psalm 37:9 & 29 means. You, rather, ask a question that has nothing to do with the point under consideration.

(And yes, I do hope to be a subject of God's Kingdom.)

[tam]

Peace to you OWH (and JW as well, as this might answer some of her questions to me from earlier),

[Replying to post 161 by tam]

It is unreal that you are making such an issue of Kingdom vs. government.

I am not making such an issue of it. In fact, you agreed with my post (154), as concerns what makes up a Kingdom.

I'm not sure why that post was such an issue.

We both (and jw) agree that the Kingdom consists of the King (and those who reign with Him), as well as subjects of the Kingdom.

The main point that JW and I are making is that God's kingdom is a bona-fide government, as is indicated in the Scriptures. Sometimes the terms are used interchangeably, as in Isaiah 9:6,7.

"...Unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder:...Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever." (American Standard Version)

JW is stating that a Kingdom is ONLY a government. Now, if JW means that a Government is exactly the same as a Kingdom - such as: a government is made up of both rulers and subjects, just as a Kingdom is made up of both rulers and subjects - well, okay, I guess I would agree in principal. But that is not what government normally means. I am a citizen (subject) of Canada. But I am not part of the government of Canada.


But I have no more desire than you to continue to argue over a technical point.

The Kingdom is not in one's heart, it is something that is as real as the governmental set-up that the United States has.

If you were to change that statement to 'the kingdom is not just in one's heart', then I agree with your statement.




Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

"Those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth....

Do the anointed not hope in God?

The righteous will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." (Psalm 37:9,29)

Are the anointed not righteous?

Your questions imply that the statements are exhaustive but they are not, thus there is not need to suggest its one or the other (a false dichotomy). To illustrate, let's take the statement:

Everyone (All those) in the shopping mall have money.

Does that mean everyone that doesn't go shopping has no money? Or is it not rather saying that those that go to the mall have money but peope with money may not (for whatever reason) go to the mall?

Ultimately which destiny we have, (whether for a heavenly calling or to live forever in paradise) is not dependent on the individual but on God's grace. If the bible says those in rulership are faithful, it does not mean the subjects of that rulership are not, and if God says those that will live on the earth are faithful it does not mean thoat those taht will rule the earth are not. It is God's good pleasure to assign a role for each person but faith is a prerequisite for everyone.


JW

[tam]

[Replying to post 191 by onewithhim]

It's rather counter-productive to a discussion to totally blind-side it by not answering a simple question as to what Psalm 37:9 & 29 means. You, rather, ask a question that has nothing to do with the point under consideration.

I'm sorry but I'm afraid your objection has 'blind-sided' me, lol. You did not ask any questions as to what those verses mean. You simply cited them. I think they are self-explanatory; so if there is a particular question about them that you wanted me to answer, then I'm going to need you to be specific.



Peace again to you OWH,
- a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 126 by onewithhim]

4) What do these two scriptures mean: Isaiah 9:6,7; Daniel 2:44 ?

So can I just get this clear, Isaiah 9 speaks of Jesus Christ heading a government.

- Is this something different from the Kingdom which he also heads? Does he head two seperate ruling authorities or just the one?

Just the one.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 175 by Checkpoint]

So are you saying that the kingdom was "set up" during the reign or the Roman cesars? That before Rome God's kingdom had not been "set up"?

I am saying what the verse says, and equating that time as during the Roman Empire.

So is that a "yes" or a "no" (I don't know is an acceptable answer)

I will remind you of the question (please spare me the vague, "grey-speak" avoidance, double speak non-answers...).

Are you saying that the kingdom was "set up" during the reign of the Roman cesars?




JW

Yes.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 137 by 2timothy316]

I don't know if people are being evasive, I think its more that is the way they have been taught; meaningless expressionss are the mainstay of religions that have no real answers and it all comes to a head with the kingdom because for them its the great unknown; simply put, they don't know what God's kingdom is! I don't think its a "ploy" (well for some it is, but for most not), its just when they asked their pastors "What is God's Kingdom?" they were told "Blah blah blah blah - doesn't mean anything - blah blah blah blah .. Go in peace my son and for pity's sake don't ask me any more questions"

For those that make an effort to read the bible it often comes down to not knowing the difference between Jehovah's Sovereignty and the Messianic kingdom, so they end up trying to encompass every scripture they have ever read with the word king or ruler in it together thus the ... "It has always been, is now, will be in the future, is in heaven but on earth and everwhere, everyone is in it, nobody is in it it stared in the past but it will start in the future , it is coming, arrived, yet promised, yet past yet future, yet now... etc"

It would be funny if it weren't so important.



JW

The confusion is exactly what Satan wants. Remember Eve. Satan asked, 'is it so'? (Gen 3:1)

Satan might as well be asking, 'is it so that the kingdom of God is real'? It is up to the Eve's (we are all Eve) of the world to give their answer, yes or no. An answer of 'yes and no' is a no. I feel you on the importance of it all too. We are doing the best we can though. If a person doesn't want to see it or Jehovah will not let them see it, then really we might as well be punching at air.

I agree that there is nothing we can do if a person doesn't want to "see." (I don't believe that Jehovah ever keeps someone from seeing the truth.) All we can do is try to tell them. They are responsible for their own "sight."

Fascinating.

We see the kingdom differently, which is what this thread is about.

Because we do see differently, each of us can say of the others:

simply put, they don't know what God's kingdom is!

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you saying that the kingdom was "set up" during the reign of the Roman cesars?

Yes.

But you earlier said the kingdom started when "When God's actions and choices started." Are you suggesting that God had no "actions or choices" before the Roman era?

So we can define God's kingdom (that we pray to come) as "God's actions and choices" is that correct?

If so, when did it start ruling?

When God's actions and choices started.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 141 by Checkpoint]

Uh-huh. True. It's just like if Prince Charles of Great Britain is set to take over ruling the kingdom (his mother having died or abdicated or whatever), and before he is officially installed as king he goes riding through London in one of his limousines, with the people calling out, "Save, we pray, our king!" Does this mean he was already installed as the king? No, because he wasn't. So what does it mean? That they recognize that Prince Charles has been designated as their future king, though he hasn't formally taken the throne as yet.

Bada bing. Bada boom.

We are not talking about how man operates but how God does.

Jesus made that very clear.

Are you saying that my analogy is erroneous? Would you explain why you think this?

Yes, I am saying that.

When Charles becomes king his mother will no longer be queen, will no longer reign and rule. God is always on His throne, He is never replaced.

You do not see, and therefore do not accept, these two things:

1) Jesus is now sharing His Father's throne, at His right hand as His appointed and installed king.

He was crowned 2000 years ago and is still reigning in the midst of his enemies. This reign will continue until the last enemy is destroyed.

2) This kingdom is in the world but not of this world or its ways or its thoughts. It is of God and of heaven.

So it operates in God's spiritual dimension, "not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit", Zechariah. It does not fight against flesh and blood as all worldly kingdoms have done.