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So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?Luke 16:
6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.
The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are stated as being on the earth at present:Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 207 by myth-one.com]
The Kingdom of Heaven applies to the "geographical" location, whereas the Kingdom of God applies to the inhabitants of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Not so.
They are different names for the same one kingdom.
If the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are different names for the same kingdoms, and are with us now, how do you explain Jesus instructing us to pray as follows:Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matthew 3:2
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
The Kingdom of God cometh not with observance: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)
We are to pray for God's kingdom to come to the earth!Matthew 6 wrote:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
It's not a big deal to me, but the King James translation of Matthew uses the phrase "kingdom of God" five times.Checkpoint wrote:Matthew uses the name "kingdom of heaven" only, whereas all other writers use the name "kingdom of God".
Well, the kingdom is a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly one, not of this world and its definitions and ways but of God's.myth-one.com wrote:The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are stated as being on the earth at present:Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 207 by myth-one.com]
The Kingdom of Heaven applies to the "geographical" location, whereas the Kingdom of God applies to the inhabitants of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Not so.
They are different names for the same one kingdom.
If the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are different names for the same kingdoms, and are with us now, how do you explain Jesus instructing us to pray as follows:Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matthew 3:2
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
The Kingdom of God cometh not with observance: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)
We are to pray for God's kingdom to come to the earth!Matthew 6 wrote:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
God's kingdom would be the Kingdom of God -- right?
But if the earth is already within the Kingdom of God, there is no reason to pray for it's coming.
How does that work?
You commentedMatthew uses the name "kingdom of heaven" only, whereas all other writers use the name "kingdom of God".
I checked the Greek of two of those you quoted above and found one was "heaven" and one was "God".It's not a big deal to me, but the King James translation of Matthew uses the phrase "kingdom of Go thed" five times.
What do the verses 9 & 29 of Psalm 37 mean?tam wrote: [Replying to post 191 by onewithhim]
It's rather counter-productive to a discussion to totally blind-side it by not answering a simple question as to what Psalm 37:9 & 29 means. You, rather, ask a question that has nothing to do with the point under consideration.
I'm sorry but I'm afraid your objection has 'blind-sided' me, lol. You did not ask any questions as to what those verses mean. You simply cited them. I think they are self-explanatory; so if there is a particular question about them that you wanted me to answer, then I'm going to need you to be specific.
Peace again to you OWH,
- a slave of Christ,
tammy
Somehow my question got lost. If the Kingdom was set up during the time of the caesars, why did Jesus tell us to pray for it to come? If you've already answered this, I apologize for my bad memory.Checkpoint wrote:Yes.JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 175 by Checkpoint]
So is that a "yes" or a "no" (I don't know is an acceptable answer)Checkpoint wrote:I am saying what the verse says, and equating that time as during the Roman Empire.So are you saying that the kingdom was "set up" during the reign or the Roman cesars? That before Rome God's kingdom had not been "set up"?
I will remind you of the question (please spare me the vague, "grey-speak" avoidance, double speak non-answers...).
Are you saying that the kingdom was "set up" during the reign of the Roman cesars?
JW
Then would you please explain to me Daniel 2:44?Checkpoint wrote:Yes, I am saying that.onewithhim wrote:Are you saying that my analogy is erroneous? Would you explain why you think this?Checkpoint wrote:We are not talking about how man operates but how God does.onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 141 by Checkpoint]
Uh-huh. True. It's just like if Prince Charles of Great Britain is set to take over ruling the kingdom (his mother having died or abdicated or whatever), and before he is officially installed as king he goes riding through London in one of his limousines, with the people calling out, "Save, we pray, our king!" Does this mean he was already installed as the king? No, because he wasn't. So what does it mean? That they recognize that Prince Charles has been designated as their future king, though he hasn't formally taken the throne as yet.
Bada bing. Bada boom.
Jesus made that very clear.
When Charles becomes king his mother will no longer be queen, will no longer reign and rule. God is always on His throne, He is never replaced.
You do not see, and therefore do not accept, these two things:
1) Jesus is now sharing His Father's throne, at His right hand as His appointed and installed king.
He was crowned 2000 years ago and is still reigning in the midst of his enemies. This reign will continue until the last enemy is destroyed.
2) This kingdom is in the world but not of this world or its ways or its thoughts. It is of God and of heaven.
So it operates in God's spiritual dimension, "not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit", Zechariah. It does not fight against flesh and blood as all worldly kingdoms have done.
Because you cited scriptures that showed the theme of Jesus' preaching was the Kingdom, and other good points about his ministry.Checkpoint wrote:Because they do! For example, 1914.onewithhim wrote:Very good! So why say that JWs teach falsehoods?Checkpoint wrote:No, not at all, don't worry.JehovahsWitness wrote:And are you attempting to imply that the KINGDOM was not the main theme of Jesus' preaching work?Checkpoint wrote:Just what I said, you are so predictable and can always be relied on to tell us "certain truths" that do not reflect what scripture conveys.I am not surprised you shy away from expaining who is in the kingdom and what it does. This is regretable since the kingdom was the main theme of Jesus preaching work.
Mark 1:
14 After the arrest of John, Jesus went into Galilee and proclaimed the gospel of God 15 The time is fulfilled, he said, and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
Matthew 10:
7 And proclaim as you go, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.
Luke 10:
1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go.
2 And he said to them, The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.
8 Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you.
9 Heal the sick in it and say to them, The kingdom of God has come near to you.
10 But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,
11 Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.
17The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!
18 And he said to them, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.
20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.
21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
22 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.
Why did you rate my post as "Very good!"?
Please be more specific. What assumptions and misunderstandings have I shown evidence of? How do my claims about the Kingdom not match what is said in the New Testament?Checkpoint wrote:I do reject much of what you say about the kingdom.onewithhim wrote:Wow! This isn't like your usual self, Checkpoint. You have agreed with quite a bit that JWs wax lyrical about. What is so hard to accept about what JW and I are trying to explain about the Kingdom?Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 151 by JehovahsWitness]
Checkpoint wrote:
You commentedThat has to fit into what some folk insist are certain truths as to how it governs, where it governs from, who does the governing, and when that governing started.
Just what I said, you are so predictable and can always be relied on to tell us "certain truths" that do not reflect what scripture conveys.I am not surprised you shy away from expaining who is in the kingdom and what it does. This is regretable since the kingdom was the main theme of Jesus preaching work.
You added
Don't worry, Jehovah's Witnesses will continue to preach the kingdom while you can concentrate on speaking about your own salvation, or Christian rock music or whatever other subject "churchless christians" like to wax lyrical about.
Yes, you will do what you do best, "wax lyrical about" whatever toes your party line with its mixture of truth, half truth, and falsehood.
That is because, to me, it is full of assumptions, misunderstandings, and claims that do not match what the New Testament conveys about the kingdom, whether present or future.
You STILL have avoided answering my question. I will ask it one more time. Jesus indicated that the Kingdom would bring restoration to the earth and the end of all suffering and death---which would be God's will. If the Kingdom has been ruling to its full potential, why is there still suffering and death?Checkpoint wrote:No, onewithim, that was not dodging the question; rather, you are dodging the answer to your own question about God's will, which the answer I gave also applies to.onewithhim wrote:That is exactly right, checkpoint. That is what we have been saying all along.Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 126 by onewithhim]
2) If it [the kingdom of God] has always been here, why is the world still suffering?
Because God wanted a people who worshiped and loved Him because He had captured their hearts and were not robots.
Therefore He gave to man freedom to choose to do so or not do so.
However, you are dodging the question. God's Kingdom is said in the Bible to cause God's will to be done on Earth as it is in heaven. It will cause suffering and death to cease. If the Kingdom has been functioning to its fullest all along, why is there still suffering and death? (Matthew 6:9,10; Revelation 21:4)
That answer, which you agreed with, talked about what is known as "God's permissive will", the negative result of which has to include suffering.
God also has His ultimate will, His eternal purpose realised, and you have assumed that is all that Jesus meant in his model prayer, the result of which ends suffering.
I now quote two passages that illustrate God's permissive will in this age of the throne of grace.
When anyone repents, God's permissive will is done on earth in response to His command and to prayer, thus bringing that little bit closer His ultimate will.Acts 17:
30 Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent.
31 For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the man He has appointed.
2 Peter 3:
8 But beloved, do not let this one thing be hidden from you, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
Please see post 204, but I think they mean exactly what they say.onewithhim wrote:What do the verses 9 & 29 of Psalm 37 mean?tam wrote: [Replying to post 191 by onewithhim]
It's rather counter-productive to a discussion to totally blind-side it by not answering a simple question as to what Psalm 37:9 & 29 means. You, rather, ask a question that has nothing to do with the point under consideration.
I'm sorry but I'm afraid your objection has 'blind-sided' me, lol. You did not ask any questions as to what those verses mean. You simply cited them. I think they are self-explanatory; so if there is a particular question about them that you wanted me to answer, then I'm going to need you to be specific.
Peace again to you OWH,
- a slave of Christ,
tammy
You respondedWhen anyone repents, God's permissive will is done on earth in response to His command and to prayer, thus bringing that little bit closer His ultimate will.
Your question as posed was an impossible one to answer to your satisfaction, by either of us.You STILL have avoided answering my question. I will ask it one more time.
Jesus indicated that the Kingdom would bring restoration to the earth and the end of all suffering and death---which would be God's will. If the Kingdom has been ruling to its full potential, why is there still suffering and death?
