Dan Barker's Easter Challenge (for PinSeeker)

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Here is Dan Barker's famous Easter Challenge for Christians :
https://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/stone.php

'' I HAVE AN EASTER challenge for Christians. My challenge is simply this: tell me what happened on Easter. I am not asking for proof. My straightforward request is merely that Christians tell me exactly what happened on the day that their most important doctrine was born.

Believers should eagerly take up this challenge, since without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Paul wrote, "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not." (I Corinthians 15:14-15)

The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8. These 165 verses can be read in a few moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened first, second, and so on; who said what, when; and where these things happened. ''

Are you up for the challenge, PinSeeker ?
Or any other Christian here ?

Let's be clear -
your account cannot OMIT anything from those source accounts.

Kapyong

[JehovahsWitness]

Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?

• Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)
  Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14)
  Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)
  John: In a room, at evening (20:19)

# Where and when did Jesus first appear?

Matthew 28:8-9 - first** appears near¤ his tomb
Mark 16:14-15 - appears to Mary Magdalena but it’s not clear where
Luke 24:13-15 - first** appears near Emmaus, several miles from Jerusalem
John 20:13-14 - first** appears at his tomb

#ANSWER: Probably appeared first** to the women (excluding Mary Magdalene) somehere between the tomb site and where the Apostles Peter and John were at the time, some time on Sunday morning.

Please note that none of the accounts explicitly state exact times and none of the individual accounts state that this was his "first"** appearance or that Jesus had not appeared to anyone previously (see note on SEQUENCING)

¤ [comment: Matthew does not use the term "near" the scripture only indicates somewhere between the tombsite and where the disciples were located]

[JehovahsWitness]

What happened at the appearance?

• Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20)
  Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19)
  Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51)
  John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)

ANSWER
That would depend on which "appearance" is being referenced. Jesus appeared to various groups and individuals for just over a month. All of the above happened on different occassions.

[JehovahsWitness]

Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?

• Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday
  Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday
  John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)
  Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)

ANSWER Yes. Jesus was on earth for just over a month after his Resurrection. Evidently he appeared to various groups and indidivuals in different locations.

EXPLANATION

Mark 16: 14, 19 not part of the original text (ignore)
John 20:1-25 all pertain to the events on a single day (Sunday). Other passages of John and other writers speak of events either on the same day (Sunday) or other occassions.
Luke 24:50-52 makes no mention of when the events at Bethany are happening (Luke sequences with "then" which places the event after those reported in the earlier verses but it is an unfounded assumption to conclude that that was later the same day.

[JehovahsWitness]

Where were the messengers (angels) situated at the tomb?

Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)
Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)
Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)
John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)

#ANSWER: Angels are not immobile; where they were depends on what moment of the day it was; and who was witnessing the event

To learn more please go to posts related to...

BIBLICAL SEQUENCING, INERRANCY and ...THE RESSURECTION EVENTS

[JehovahsWitness]

INDEX

Why did the women visit the tomb?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 567#926567

What time did the women visit the tomb?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 336#908336

Who were the women that visited Jesus tomb?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 331#908331

How many women visted Jesus' tomb
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 331#908331

Was the tomb open when they arrived?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 335#908335

Who was at the tomb when the women arrived?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 336#908336

Where were these messengers (angels) situated when the women arrived?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 581#926581

Where were the messengers (angels) situated at the tomb?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 581#926581

What did the messenger(s) say?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 557#926557

Did the women tell anyone what happened?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 395#908395

When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 568#926568

When did Mary first see Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 569#926569

Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 706#908706

After the women, to whom did Jesus "first" appear?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 574#926574

Where and when did Jesus first appear to his disciples?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 576#926576


Did the disciples believe the two men (Cleopus & his companion)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 571#926571

What happened at the appearance?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 577#926577

Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 579#926579

Where did the ascension take place?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 561#926561

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 25 by JehovahsWitness]



COMBINING THE VARIOUS ACCOUNTS

#The women started out just before dawn (Sunday morning) and got there as the sun was rising (they being all the women although Mary played a leading role)

#They go to the tomb to finish what had been hurredly done before the sabbath

#when they arrive the tomb, they see it is empty

#Mary immediately leaves the group running back to tell Peter and John leaving behind the other women. The rest of the women remain at the tomb.

# An angel appears to "the women" (Mary is not specifically mentioned in connection with this appearance) followed by another 'encouter at the entrance' (2nd angel). The angels tell the women of the ressurection and sent them to inform the disciples.

#On their way to deliver this message, it is these women (EXCLUDING Mary) who meet Jesus himself(28:8 .).

# Mary reports the empty tomb to John and Peter and her conclusion tha the body has been stolen. All three head back to inspect.

#When Mary gets back with Peter and John they inspect the empty tomb and the men leave perplexed. Mary, however stays behind alone weeping. She's questioned by a third man who she mistakes for the gardener who in fact is the resurrected Jesus.

# Jesus never tells Mary he 'cannot be touched' but he does tell this hysterically happy woman clinging to him no doubt like a limpet, that she'll have to let him go; he cannot stay with her. He has people to see and things to do, notabley ascend to his Father in heaven.

# After appearing on sunday morning to the (1) women and (2) Mary (neither of which are believed by the Apostles) Jesus appears to other various individuals:

* Peter: sunday early afternoon(Luke 24: 3) evidently the first of the men (3) and the one that has enough clout to convince everyone (or nearly everyone, more later)
* cleopas & his companion (late sunday afternoon)(4)
* the apostles (minus thomas) sunday evening (5)
* 8 days later, "the twelve"* including thomas this time (6)

.... and on various other occassions before his ascended to heaven, some (like Thomas did initially) doubted the reports but all (the disciples) are eventually convinced (Math 28: 16).

#At some point during the month or so jesus is present on earth, he arranges to meet the 11 on a specific mountain location in Galilee.

# "they" (referring to the disciples - male and female) where not intially publically declare the ressurectiont to non-believers until instructed to do so more than a month later.

#Word of the Galilean appointment gets out and instead of 11 upward of 500 disciples turn up. Jesus Assures them of his authority and tells them of their commission to spread the word. He promises them he will always watch over them.

#His final meeting is private with the 11 alone just outside Bethany (not far from Jerusalem) on the mount of olives.

# Jesus tells them to stay in the capital and wait for the holy spirit. It arrives 10 days later. Enthused they set to work proclaiming the good news as instructed back up in Galilee.

# And the rest, as they say, is history...








RELATED POSTS

HOW MANY : Does the bible contain "numerical contradictions"?
viewtopic.php?p=1016246#p1016246

What are copyist errors ?
viewtopic.php?p=1058539#p1058539

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

CONTRADICTIONS , SEQUENCING and ...EASTER CHALLENGES*

* harmonizing the resurrection narratives



¤ Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... tradiction

[JehovahsWitness]

**NOTE: WHICH CAME FIRST: A Word on Sequencing.

Many questions are rather liberal with the word "first"; it should be noted that this expression is rarely employed in the description of the resurrection events and even when it is, is not necessarily used in an absolute sense. It is not possible to give a definitive answer as to which events happened FIRST although an appraisal of all four gospels can provide a probable sequence of events. It's reported Jesus appeared on multiple occassions over a period of over a month to many different individuals and none of the accounts explicitly state nothing happened PRIOR (or FOLLOWING) or state the date and time of events, thus questions as to which event came "first" are largely redundant.

RELATED POSTS

Faux Contradictions
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 41#p336941

Easter Challenge 2018
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 99#p908299

PAST EASTER CHALLENGES
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p890661

Extended list
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 71#p375671

[rikuoamero]

Actually... You know, why re-create the wheel? Here you go:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/rezrvw.php

Now, admittedly, I didn't read it yet, but I will. There may be some things in there that I might quibble a bit with. But at the very least, it dispels your claim that no one has ever been able to answer it. The internet is a great thing, is it not? Catch you later, Kapyong.

Grace and peace to you.

Very well, let's rebut the rebuttal shall we?

The Gospel writers did not have unlimited paper and ink at their disposal; this was expensive stuff, and anyone who wants to question this point need to explain why it is not relevant. The Resurrection narratives were at the end of their works, so they were constrained to be as succinct as possible in their reportage -- more than they would be for any other part of their narrative.

So the supposed most important point about Christian belief (try and convince me that theologically speaking, Jesus's death and resurrection are not the singular most important thing about Jesus)...is just more or less scribbled in at the end? Is that what you're saying? That you don't mind that the most important thing gets less "screen time" than other points about Jesus?
As for unlimited paper and ink...didn't Jesus conjure up fishes and loaves? What's stopping him or God from conjuring up paper and ink?

Also relevant is the point of "who knew what, when". The same exact knowledge could certainly have not been accessible to each and every Gospel writer.

Great! This is a point long argued by the atheist skeptics in fact! So next time you and your crowd try to say that the New Testament writers were guided or inspired by the Holy Spirit, by God, by Jesus, or talked to the apostles or to Mary/Joseph...I will keep this in mind.

A second factor is the one we relate here about precision writing in the ancient East.
Abraham Rihbany in The Syrian Christ [108ff] writes of Easterners who offer what we call "misstatements" which "are more often the result of indifference than the deliberate purpose to deceive. One of his besetting sins is his ma besay-il -- it does not matter. He sees no essential difference between nine o'clock and half after nine, or whether a conversation took place on the housetop or in the house.

That may have been their attitude, but that does not mean that we here in the modern era should accept it. I and others care about precision.

[strike]Strange, Pinseeker. So far, you're not actually answering Kapyong's/Dan Barker's challenge.
You're just giving excuses.
[/strike]

Variations in oral tradition in no way contradicts the idea of inerrancy.

So what the heck does inerrancy mean then, if you're just going to allow differences in the stories told to slide through?

The idea of inspiration as wooden and mechanical in all cases is something that the Scriptures never demand.

Again I ask, what inerrancy means. I thought it meant free from mistake, from contradiction, no errors to be found.

Albert Lord, in his essay entitled "The Gospels as Oral Traditional Literature" which appears in The Relationships Among the Gospels: An Interdisciplinary Dialogue, remarks generally upon oral traditional narratives as having "textual fluidity", such that they are "constantly being repeated without concern for word-for-word retelling of a set, established text." [37] One may compare the material in the link and note differences which are very much like those in the Gospels -- with no place to claim "error" or "contradiction" between them as the substantial message remains the same.

What I see in this quote is someone desperately trying to say that the story is still inerrant...even while there are differences in the stories told by the Gospel authors large enough to drive a truck through.
It's a want to have your cake and eat it situation.

This will be a minor factor: John's Gospel we see as having been written as a sort of supplement to Mark. Hence we expect John to report things that Mark does not, purposely, in order to fill gaps, only touching the Markan narrative at points essential to telling the story.

Oh? Gospel Mark's Jesus does not reveal who the traitor is. According to the story in Gospel Mark, Jesus and the disciples sit down, have their meal, it is revealed one of them will betray him, and afterward, they all get up and leave together.
Contrast that with Gospel John's Last Supper scene, where Judas is explicitly named as the traitor, the disciples basically drool empty-headedly and do nothing, Judas leaves seperately. There is no mention of Judas kissing Jesus on the cheek to identify him in Gospel John.

Notice the length of the text, compared between Gospel Mark and Gospel John. Mark's Last Supper scene is barely a page, then we move immediately to Jesus before the high priests, answering charges.
Read John...and we have a supper scene lasting for multiple chapters, during which Jesus pontificates at length, we're told how he is arrested, etc.

[strike]So all in all Pinseeker...this is a very poor showing on your part. Far from actually answering Dan Barker's/Kapyong's challenge...you merely offered excuses for it.[/strike]

UPDATE
Upon further examination of the page Pinseeker linked to, I find that the challenge is actually attempted (have not as of the time of writing this actually read it) but earlier, when I submitted this post, I hadn't noticed it.
I apologise to Pinseeker for the comments I made up above, that are now struck out. In a short while, I will be in work, and I will read through the actual rebuttal proper.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 28 by rikuoamero]


Apology accepted; I appreciate your humility.

Yes, the link I provided is not a personal rebuttal -- meaning mine -- of the challenge. I just threw it out there only to:

1. show that there have been plausible answers given, and this is one of them, and to...

2. not have to start from scratch.

I did, as you might have noticed, say that I hadn't read it as yet, but would, and upon doing so might have some quibbles with some of the points made. In reading your post above, here's one of them:

"This will be a minor factor: John's Gospel we see as having been written as a sort of supplement to Mark. Hence we expect John to report things that Mark does not, purposely, in order to fill gaps, only touching the Markan narrative at points essential to telling the story."

I would disagree with this. As I have said in another recent thread, John's Gospel is very different from the other three in that he doesn't focus on the events themselves, but rather the intangible, spiritual significance of them. I would call it complementary (as I would all the Gospels), but not a mere "supplement." If the writers of that rebuttal were to clarify what they meant by "supplement," they might possibly agree with what I say here, but that's not really possible to know.

Anyway, as I said, why re-create the wheel? Which is hyperbole, but you get the idea, I'm sure.

[Kapyong]

Gday Jagella,

I already posed this challenge, and nobody to my knowledge could sensibly reconcile the contradictory resurrection accounts.
We are talking about religious faith here, so truth is not essential.

Yup.
The topic came up again so I figured a new thread was worth it.

Your posts here have been instructive, clear, and calm - good stuff


Kapyong