There Is No Such Thing As Valid Prophecy

[RedEye]

Christians will often cite fulfilled prophecy as evidence for their religion being true. Ignoring the fact that none of these so-called fulfilled prophecies hold up to scrutiny when closely examined, is such biblical prophecy even possible in the first place?

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty. However, if the future is predetermined then there can be no such thing as human free will. Free will cannot exist in a universe where the course of the universe is already known in detail in advance. We could only be automatons acting out a predetermined script with no deviation possible.

That creates a dilemma for Christians who want both prophecy to be valid and free will to exist. They obviously can't have both.

If you are a Christian the question is, which one of these are you willing to give up and why?

[RedEye]

If Peter were going to deny Jesus out of his own will...why would he? In General Chat, I talked about a Superman fanfiction that I read that has something pertinent - people's behaviours change in response to Superman existing and being known to exist.

It's one of the arguments against valid prophecy. It raises all kinds of paradoxes. Just by making a prophecy (which people accept as true) wouldn't it affect the outcome being prophesied? For example if a true prophet could see a disaster was going to occur with an airplane crash (with specific flight number etc.) would authorities act to cancel that flight, thereby denying the prophecy? If so, how could we still call it a valid prophecy? The very act of publicizing a prophecy can have the effect of neutralizing it. When you end up with a paradox, it probably means that the concept is not valid.

[amortalman]

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined.

If the God of the Bible were real I would see no problem with prophecy. Even with human abilities, I might make a correct prophesy that my five-year-old grandson will put his hand in the cookie jar his mother left open on the floor. I did not interfere with his free will at all. An omnipotent God would have no problem seeing the future while at the same time keeping his hands off.

[RedEye]

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined.

If the God of the Bible were real I would see no problem with prophecy. Even with human abilities, I might make a correct prophesy that my five-year-old grandson will put his hand in the cookie jar his mother left open on the floor. I did not interfere with his free will at all. An omnipotent God would have no problem seeing the future while at the same time keeping his hands off.

I think we are talking about different things. Yours is a prediction (no matter how certain you may be of the outcome) based on past behaviour. What I mean by prophecy is absolute knowledge of the future (perhaps centuries in advance). They are not the same thing. It's not really relevant whether God keeps his hands off or not. That's not the issue. The issue is that if he can see the future perfectly then that future is predetermined. It can't change. Therefore human actions are constrained by what must happen even if appearances may suggest otherwise. That eliminates free will. We may appear to have free will but in reality the course of the universe is already set in stone.

[JehovahsWitness]

My only claim is that if the future can be seen (not a mere prediction but with certain knowledge) then it (the future) is fixed in place. Therefore what we call free will must be illusory. I'm not sure how you can disagree with this.

I can disagree with it because you are confusing seeing something with removing the free will of the person that did that thing.

If I watch you choose between an apple and an orange, does my observation mean you are not exercising your free will to choose?

Now if I could see into the future and watch you making yhe same choice, does that mean you have not equally exercising your free will to choose?

Watching someone do something is not the same thing as making them do it. Prophecy, when it concerns individuals, is simply God seeing in advance what choices certain people will make because he can see events from a different perspective. We can only see an event as it happens. History can observe the same event after it happens. An omniscient God could watch the same event (ie the exercise of a personal free will choice) before it happens.

BACK TO THE FUTURE

• Remember the classic time travel movie "Back to the future" ? The hero, Marty McFly has a time machine so he travels back in time and can observe people making choices that will have later consequences. As long as Marty just observes and doesn't change anything, the future, which he's already seen remains as he knows it to be. If he were to write a book about the things he knows will happen, it could be called "prophecy". Now if, as in the movie Marty wants to change the future he can. Not by removing people's ability to make free choices but by giving them alternative choices or by himself becoming an actor in events.

An omniscient God could remove our choices to ensure a certain outcome but he would not have. Omnipotence would mean he can let things play out, and leave people to make their choices, observing and sometimes communicating in advance, the effect of those real time free will choices. You are making a ddistinction between prophecy and prediction, but biblically prophecy is just God predicting. The level of certainlty is not from the removal of real time choice but from his own selective observation of future events. For all intense and purposes the future remains fluid, changing in relation to present day choices and actions. As God implied to Cain in the biblical account of Cain and Abel, you want a different future, make a different choice.




JW


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Why do people choose to do bad?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 636#939636

[1213]

After person sees the prophesy is correct, he is probably not anymore atheist.

You have this backwards. People believe in God primarily for emotional comfort.

Is that belief comforting to you?

[1213]

If all your future actions are fixed, you cannot have free will, only the illusion of it. True or false?

Except it they are determined by persons free will. You can have free will, and it can be known what you freely want and will want and therefore it can be known what happens in the future. So, if future is determined, it is determined by free wills.

[RedEye]

I didn't say anything about causation. My only claim is that if the future can be seen (not a mere prediction but with certain knowledge) then it (the future) is fixed in place. Therefore what we call free will must be illusory. I'm not sure how you can disagree with this.

I can disagree with it because you are confusing seeing something with removing the free will of the person that did that thing.

*sigh* If you aren't even going to try to understand what I am arguing then there isn't much point, is there?

Let's take an example. God relays to a prophet that you will walk into a cafe tomorrow morning and order and drink a Chai Latte. You walk into a cafe the following morning, you ponder what you will have and decide to order and drink a Chai Latte. Now you thought you were exercising free will in your choice. But could you have ordered a Cappuccino instead? The answer has to be "no". God saw you having a Chai Latte and God cannot be wrong. You were constrained to a Chai Latte. So did you really have free will in your choice or was it only an illusion?

You are making a distinction between prophecy and prediction, but biblically prophecy is just God predicting. The level of certainlty is not from the removal of real time choice but from his own selective observation of future events. For all intense and purposes the future remains fluid, changing in relation to present day choices and actions.[/i]

No, we are talking apples and oranges. God is perfect and either knows the future perfectly or he does not. This thread is not about mere prediction or forecasting which humans can do quite well without God. If the future is always fluid then there is no such thing as Biblical prophecy in the sense that Christians mean it (something which is absolutely certain to transpire no matter what).

[RedEye]

If all your future actions are fixed, you cannot have free will, only the illusion of it. True or false?

Except it they are determined by persons free will. You can have free will, and it can be known what you freely want and will want and therefore it can be known what happens in the future. So, if future is determined, it is determined by free wills.

Can you answer a true/false question or not? All you are doing is asserting that what led to a future event is produced by an application of free will. You ignore the fact that such "free will" is only illusory if that future event is known ahead of time. By the future being determined in advance, all contributing actions leading up to it are fully constrained. Calling those actions "free" does nothing to change the fact that there is nothing actually free about them.

[Tcg]

After person sees the prophesy is correct, he is probably not anymore atheist.

You have this backwards. People believe in God primarily for emotional comfort.

Is that belief comforting to you?

It is neither a belief nor is it comforting. Some things just are.

[JehovahsWitness]

You were constrained to a Chai Latte.

By what mechanism were you constrained?You either made the decision or you did not. Your mind and body was controlled or it was not. The future does not control the present since it has not happened yet. It remains "fluid", changeable by the present, until it is fixed by a person's decisions. The fact that God can see what every eventuality doesn't change that.

CHANGING THE FUTURE: MARTY'S PICTURES

• The above was illustrated nicely in the 80s time travel movie "Back to the Future". In it the hero, Marty McFly, travels back in time to meet his parents before he was born. As an observer he has to be careful not to change anything or he will effect his future. Unfortunately he accidently meets his "mother" and she develops a crush on him. This action, if uncorrected will effect his own existence since if Marty's mother never meets and falls in love with Marty's farther Marty himself won't be born. Marty has in his pocket a family picture from the future, but as he unsuccessfully scrambles to get his mother to fall for his father, he sees the family is slowly beginning to disappear, he is changing his future. If God choose to, he could see the future each of us make but what is in the future is dependent on what we do now. Like Marty's pictures our present decisions determine what's in the picture.
  
  

To take the biblical example of Cain and Abel. Cain carried a murderous hatred for his brother Abel. God could see the "picture" of exactly what would happen if Cain didn't change his attitude. But God told Cain that he (Cain) himself could change that future, wipe it out and make an alternative if he (Cain) removed the jealouse hatred from his heart. Of course God could also look to see if he took the advices or not, but the point about free will is demonstrated, what was in Cains future depended entirely on Cain.

JW



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Is foreknowledge the same as pre-destination ?
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Foreknowledge and causality: Does knowing something Will happen CAUSE it to happen?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 450#850450

Free Will: Can our present choices change our future? (this post)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 997#942997