Presumption and Imagination

[StuartJ]

A Christian member wrote on another topic:

I'd presume there was a single created sperm. I imagine it was created inside the womb next to the egg at the point of fertilisation.

To me, this speaks to the very heart of religious belief.

Can people of faith be in a state of the mind that blurs the distinction between what is broadly known as "reality" and what I term "imaginality" ...?

Because, when it comes down to matters of fact, we find that there is little to none when it comes to matters of faith.

[AdHoc]

[Replying to post 5 by AdHoc]

but I hope you can see my point that its a little bit absurd to say with any degree of certainty what other people are thinking.

Yep ...

This time I omitted my usual "It seems to me" qualifier.

It seems to me that if folks ADMIT they presume and imagine things about the possibly fictional Jesus character ...

That sounds more reasonable

We can be pretty sure they KNOW they are dealing with make-believe in a great big game of Pretend.

How can we be pretty sure of this? Even if I wasn't a person of faith I think what you're asserting here is pretty weird.

It seems to me that the special state of the mind wouldn't necessarily extend so far that they would presume to accept their imaginings as reality ...

Or would it ...?

Why not?

Did you ever believe in abiogenesis?

Did you ever believe Hannibal took an army including elephants through the Alps?

Did you ever believe Saddam Hussein had WMDs?

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 11 by AdHoc]

Did you ever believe in abiogenesis?

Did you ever believe Hannibal took an army including elephants through the Alps?

Did you ever believe Saddam Hussein had WMDs?

I don't have beliefs

I leave the word "belief" to folks who imagine their Divine Leader flooded the Dome of Heaven ... and such other imaginings

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 11 by AdHoc]

Even if I wasn't a person of faith I think what you're asserting here is pretty weird.

I don't.

It's all part the OP ...

Which is all about blurring the distinction between reality and imaginality.

What goes on inside the mind of the believer ,,,?

It's all linked to brainwashing ...

We have a recent topic on that

[AdHoc]

[Replying to post 11 by AdHoc]

Did you ever believe in abiogenesis?

Did you ever believe Hannibal took an army including elephants through the Alps?

Did you ever believe Saddam Hussein had WMDs?

I don't have beliefs

I leave the word "belief" to folks who imagine their Divine Leader flooded the Dome of Heaven ... and such other imaginings

Ok what word would you prefer to use?

Did you ever know any of those 3 assertions to be true?

[AdHoc]

[Replying to post 11 by AdHoc]

Even if I wasn't a person of faith I think what you're asserting here is pretty weird.

I don't.

It's all part the OP ...

Which is all about blurring the distinction between reality and imaginality.

What goes on inside the mind of the believer ,,,?

It's all linked to brainwashing ...

We have a recent topic on that

Haha oh well that's a relief then...

I'm glad we've established that. I can only imagine the unpredjudiced rigor that must've gone into the careful study and creation of such an important document.

Would you mind giving me a link to that great scientific treatise?

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 11 by AdHoc]

Even if I wasn't a person of faith I think what you're asserting here is pretty weird.

I don't.

It's all part the OP ...

Which is all about blurring the distinction between reality and imaginality.

What goes on inside the mind of the believer ,,,?

It's all linked to brainwashing ...

We have a recent topic on that

Haha oh well that's a relief then...

I'm glad we've established that. I can only imagine the unpredjudiced rigor that must've gone into the careful study and creation of such an important document.

Would you mind giving me a link to that great scientific treatise?

Sneer away ...

viewtopic.php?t=34974

[AdHoc]

[Replying to post 11 by AdHoc]

Even if I wasn't a person of faith I think what you're asserting here is pretty weird.

I don't.

It's all part the OP ...

Which is all about blurring the distinction between reality and imaginality.

What goes on inside the mind of the believer ,,,?

It's all linked to brainwashing ...

We have a recent topic on that

Haha oh well that's a relief then...

I'm glad we've established that. I can only imagine the unpredjudiced rigor that must've gone into the careful study and creation of such an important document.

Would you mind giving me a link to that great scientific treatise?

Sneer away ...

viewtopic.php?t=34974

Thank you.

I read through the first 6 pages of the thread and didn't see any evidence that believers are brainwashed. All I saw were personal opinions.

I agree that some believers are brainwashed but I don't believe all believers are brainwashed. I don't even believe people of other religions than mine are necessarily brainwashed.

I think its a pretty extraordinary claim to say all believers are brainwashed... I think there's something like 4 billion believers in the world today.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 17 by AdHoc]

I didn't say all believers were brainwashed.

If you claim that I did in the thread you sneered at ...

You should quote me here.

Yes, we have OPINIONS

Opinions are often the best we can do in the realm of gods and their sons, and angels and virgins and talking animals.

And it's worth comparing the idea of "opinion" with the Christian qusai-definition of "belief" in my signature below.

[AdHoc]

[Replying to post 17 by AdHoc]

I didn't say all believers were brainwashed.

If you claim that I did in the thread you sneered at ...

You should quote me here.

You asked the question if it was a good description of religion

I tried to answer your question.

If your position is that some believers are brainwashed then I guess its probably going to be difficult to find someone to seriously disagree with you.

Also for the record I didn't sneer at your thread. I don't have a problem with your thread or your OP.

I mistakenly assumed you were making a prejudiced generalization about believers and I was pretty sure that there was no evidence that all believers are brainwashed but I don't have a problem with the thread itself.

Yes, we have OPINIONS

Opinions are often the best we can do in the realm of gods and their sons, and angels and virgins and talking animals.

And it's worth comparing the idea of "opinion" with the Christian qusai-definition of "belief" in my signature below.

I'm not sure I follow you... there's a Christian definition of the word belief?

Back to my other questions:

Did you ever know abiogenesis happened?

Did you ever know Hannibal took an army including elephants through the Alps?

Did you ever know Saddam Hussein had WMDs?

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 17 by AdHoc]

I didn't say all believers were brainwashed.

If you claim that I did in the thread you sneered at ...

You should quote me here.

You asked the question if it was a good description of religion

I tried to answer your question.

If your position is that some believers are brainwashed then I guess its probably going to be difficult to find someone to seriously disagree with you.

Also for the record I didn't sneer at your thread. I don't have a problem with your thread or your OP.

I mistakenly assumed you were making a prejudiced generalization about believers and I was pretty sure that there was no evidence that all believers are brainwashed but I don't have a problem with the thread itself.

Yes, we have OPINIONS

Opinions are often the best we can do in the realm of gods and their sons, and angels and virgins and talking animals.

And it's worth comparing the idea of "opinion" with the Christian qusai-definition of "belief" in my signature below.

I'm not sure I follow you... there's a Christian definition of the word belief?

Back to my other questions:

Did you ever know abiogenesis happened?

Did you ever know Hannibal took an army including elephants through the Alps?

Did you ever know Saddam Hussein had WMDs?

You wrote:

I think its a pretty extraordinary claim to say all believers are brainwashed..

No ... I didn't make that claim did I ...? But you wrote that I did.

You wrote:

I mistakenly assumed you were making a prejudiced generalization

Very hasty ... and a bunch of other adjectives I won't use because a certain moderator who presumes and imagines things about Jesus has me on a FINAL WARNING ...!!!

I could play the "offended" card right here, but us moralless Atheists have been toughened by our life of sin and dissipation and can handle being accused of prejudice. It's not like we're Christians or anything.

You wrote:

I'm not sure I follow you... there's a Christian definition of the word belief?

After I had written:

And it's worth comparing the idea of "opinion" with the Christian qusai-definition of "belief" in my signature below.

It's beginning to look a lot like you should read things a lot more carefully before you start with:

I'm glad we've established that. I can only imagine the unpredjudiced rigor that must've gone into the careful study and creation of such an important document.

Would you mind giving me a link to that great scientific treatise?

Which looks a whole lot like sneering to me.

And you wrote:

All I saw were personal opinions.

Personal opinions are often all we get in this realm - but often the personal opinions are from folks who read things carefully and don't just assume things and sneer at other members.

(Yes, okay, some of us do lampoon the more deserving ones )

And as for abiogenesis, and Hannibal and Hussein ...

They are way, way off topic.

And besides, this is a Christian debate forum ...

And I only want to talk about Jesus.

Please keep the spotlight on Jesus and the allied angels and talking animals and such