What's the point of debating with Christians?

postroad · Post by **postroad** » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:44 pm

They decide which texts are literal and which are allegory. They decide what a word really means.

I find it a bit depressing. I could even cope with it if they came to a consensus. I'm thinking of Paul's use of the Hebrew Scriptures. He simply had no respect for context or even the correct rendering?

Apologists will claim he had the authority under Holy Spirit to do so. Are believers claiming the same authority when they bend the texts to fit their beliefs?

Is that what is meant by Spiritual discernment?

I find it particularly disturbing when I'm accused of eisegesis when assuming the literal interpretation of a text. I'm required to defend the plain reading and accused of attempting to force the text into a preconceived interpretation simultaneously?

Post by **otseng** » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:05 pm

Moderator Intervention

Please cease the tit-for-tats.

Also, most of the discussion seems to have no relevance to the OP.

______________

Moderator interventions do not count as a strike against any posters. They are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels that some sort of intervention is required.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:37 am

PinSeeker wrote: No, personal choice is a result of the inward act of salvation -- the inevitable result, but still absolutely necessary -- by God, via His Spirit.

"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)

You seems to be just explain how other Christians are wrong about personal choice, that doesn't stop whether personal choice plays a part in salvation from being a salvific issue.

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:17 am

Tcg wrote:I've seen them and read them.

Apparently with no understanding.

Tcg wrote:Neither post answers my question.

Oh, but they are. And the same answer, multiple times. Seems it would sink in...

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:43 am

Bust Nak wrote:
PinSeeker wrote: No, personal choice is a result of the inward act of salvation -- the inevitable result, but still absolutely necessary -- by God, via His Spirit.

"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
You seems to be just explain how other Christians are wrong about personal choice, that doesn't stop whether personal choice plays a part in salvation from being a salvific issue.

Salvation is of the Lord (Psalm 37:39, Ezekiel 36 and 37, Romans 8:28-29). But that doesn't negate the responsibility of man to choose and respond; rather, God's call necessitates man's choice and response. But God's inward call also guarantees man's free-will, positive choice because of his God-given freedom from bondage to sin and death, and his free-will, positive response inevitably follows. God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2). In this way, man's choice is a part of God's great salvation.

Peace, Bust Nak.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:36 am

PinSeeker wrote: Salvation is of the Lord (Psalm 37:39, Ezekiel 36 and 37, Romans 8:28-29). But that doesn't negate the responsibility of man to choose and respond; rather, God's call necessitates man's choice and response. But God's inward call also guarantees man's free-will, positive choice because of his God-given freedom from bondage to sin and death, and his free-will, positive response inevitably follows. God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2). In this way, man's choice is a part of God's great salvation.

You are still explaining how personal choice do play a part in salvation, that does not address my point: there are Christians who believe personal choice do not play a part in salvation. That is a disagreement over a salvific issue.

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:13 pm

Bust Nak wrote:You are still explaining how personal choice do play a part in salvation, that does not address my point: there are Christians who believe personal choice do not play a part in salvation. That is a disagreement over a salvific issue.

Well, on a human level, maybe. But like I said, salvation is of God and is a work of the Spirit, made possible by the atonement for sin by Christ. And there is no disagreement on that among Christians, which is what I have always said. And that's all that really matters.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:59 pm

PinSeeker wrote: Well, on a human level, maybe. But like I said, salvation is of God and is a work of the Spirit, made possible by the atonement for sin by Christ. And there is no disagreement on that among Christians, which is what I have always said. And that's all that really matters.

The problem is you said a lot more than that. You also claimed that there were no disagreement over salvific matters, it's clear now that what you really meant was there is no disagreement over this one specific salvific issue.

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:46 pm

Bust Nak wrote:The problem is you said a lot more than that.

No, the problem is you think I said a lot more than that. But we don't have to debate that.

Bust Nak wrote:You also claimed that there were no disagreement over salvific matters...

There's not. As I said, salvation is of the Lord. There is no disagreement on that. God saves. By the work of His Spirit. Because of the work of atonement on the cross by Jesus. There is no disagreement on that.

Bust Nak wrote:it's clear now that what you really meant was there is no disagreement over this one specific salvific issue.

No, there's just disagreement over what "salvation is of the Lord" really means -- how far that really reaches. And the reason for that is, some can't get past themselves, which smacks of pride. Which is understandable, because we all battle pride and the many different manifestations of that sin.

postroad · Post by **postroad** » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:44 pm

[Replying to post 83 by PinSeeker]

How can I choose to believe if I don't believe? Am I to pretend?

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:39 am

PinSeeker wrote: There's not. As I said, salvation is of the Lord. There is no disagreement on that. God saves. By the work of His Spirit. Because of the work of atonement on the cross by Jesus. There is no disagreement on that.

But there are a lot more salvific issues other than this one specific issue.

No, there's just disagreement over what "salvation is of the Lord" really means...

That that right there, is a disagreement over salvific issue. What "salvation is of the Lord" means is a salvific issue.