The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from the following exchange between myself and Pinseeker:

PinSeeker wrote:

The millennium of Revelation 20 is not a future event. It was when Jeremiah prophesied, obviously, but is not anymore. Or, to be more exacting, it's no longer merely a future event.

Checkpoint asked:

Then why do so many believers think of it as yet future only?

Pinseeker explained:

For at least two reasons, I think:

1. A basic misunderstanding of Revelation as a whole, and the Millennium of chapter 20 included.

2. Many believers (primarily western believers) have bought into the heresy of the "rapture," which came about in the early 19th century. It's not that they are heretics, it's just that that's all they've ever been exposed to.

That's one take from one school of thought.

Your take may be similar or be completely different.

Please share it here, and tell us why you hold that position.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 119 by tam]

Checkpoint wrote

3. No non-Christians will be resurrected to LIFE.

Tammy responded

This is incorrect.

This is a false teaching from men.

More than just Christians enter into the Kingdom and receive the gift of eternal life.

No one comes to the Father except by Jesus, as stated by Jesus Himself. No one is resurrected to life eternal except those that are in the Savior, those who are of Christ, Christians. You're very diplomatic, Checkpoint, but even Jesus did some rebukin.'

WOW, powerful statement, Pinsetter! And absolutely correct:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

The trouble is that it contradicts your Statement of Faith:

14. At physical death the believer enters immediately into eternal, conscious fellowship with the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting glory and blessing.

15. At physical death the unbeliever enters immediately into eternal, conscious separation from the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting judgment and condemnation.

If everyone remains everlastingly conscious from the time of their physical birth, then everyone lives forever!

Not just Christians!

LOL! Back to that again, are we? Again (this must be the... well I've lost count...) time that the opposite of eternal life is not eternal non-existence, but rather eternal judgment, and both are conscious existences. So no, my statement still stands; there is no "contradiction" on my part. I'll offer two more ways of looking at it:

1. Right now, in this life, we Christians are alive to God, while others are still dead in their sin. Meh, you may not agree with that either, but it's true. In the spiritual since, we Christians are alive and non-Christians are dead. But we're all conscious. This is a reflection of Adam and Eve who, upon eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Eden, surely did die that very day, just as God warned them they would in Genesis 2:17. They became dead in their sin... but still conscious. All through history it has been this way, from the very beginning, and it will be the same in/for eternity.

2. This is sort of a colloquialism, but there is a difference between Life (with a capital 'L') and life (lower case l). I know, I know: "YOU DON'T FIND THAT IN SCRIPTURE!", right? Well, right. But spiritually speaking, it's true.

I know, I know, you disagree. Let it go, bro. Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 119 by tam]

Checkpoint wrote

3. No non-Christians will be resurrected to LIFE.

Tammy responded

This is incorrect.

This is a false teaching from men.

More than just Christians enter into the Kingdom and receive the gift of eternal life.

No one comes to the Father except by Jesus, as stated by Jesus Himself. No one is resurrected to life eternal except those that are in the Savior, those who are of Christ, Christians. You're very diplomatic, Checkpoint, but even Jesus did some rebukin.'

Hold on a minute, Pinseeker!

Very diplomatic? Not so much.

Pondering? That's what I said and that's what I am doing just now.

What about each of those passages Tammy quoted, then?

How do they lend no support to her claim?

Grace and peace.

I honestly haven't followed the side conversation between you and she, Checkpoint. But if she said anything contrary to Jesus's own statement in John 14:6-7 ...

• “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

... then I feel absolutely confident that no Scripture would lend any support to any such claims. I might take a brief look back. Peace, brother.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 122 by PinSeeker]

QUESTION What is a SOUL?

ANSWER Biblically, a soul is a physical breathing person or animal . "Soul" is just another way of saying "human being" (or animal), made up solely of a physical body animated by the power of active force from God.

#QUESTION: So if a soul is just another way of saying person or animal can a soul die? Yes, Ezekiel 18:20: "The Soul That Sinneth, It Shall Die"

• At death the person ceases to think, feel, see, or indeed be conscious of anything (see Ecclesiastes 9 verse 5). Like a candle that has been snuffed out he *returns* to the same condition as Adam was before God made him. A complete state of non-existence.

Doesn't the word "DEAD" in the bible just that mean you "continue existing in another form without your body?

• No there is nothing in the bible to suggest that the soul (a person, made out of flesh and blood and "animated" by the power or spirit from God) is immortal or survives the death of the body.

**Sometimes the word soul (nephesh) in hebrew is used to refer to "life" (as a soul) and in those few occassions you'll read her "soul went out" but this no more indicates that the person continued to exist than the english expression: "she lost her life" indicates her life is out wandering around somewhere thinking "oh I'm lost, I need a map" or that if the person looked in the right place they'd find it. To "lose" your life (or for your "soul to go out of you") is just a figure of speech to say "to die".


QUESTION So when a man dies does his soul dies with his body?

• This is like asking of a man that is a doctor..."When the man died did the doctor die with his body? This implies that the doctor is separate and distinct from the man; a soul, like "a doctor" (like "a mother", "a painter" or "an electrician" is just another way of describing the person. The man doesn't die with his doctor, the man IS the doctor, the doctor is the man. The soul doesn't die with the man, the man *IS* a soul.

QUESTION So animals have souls?

• No animals ARE souls (ie living breathing physical creatures).

FURTHER READING What is a soul?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... is-a-soul/






RELATED POSTS


SOUL

Did God create a human body and then put a soul inside him?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 06#p889006

Is the soul immortal?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p940639

What is a soul, what is a spirit?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 80#p888980

Is the "soul" immortal?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p832209

SPIRIT

What is a person's the SPIRIT?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 60#p877560

Is there a difference between the soul and the spirit?
viewtopic.php?p=820981#p820981

What is "the breath of life"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p819272

What is a soul/spirit/death/hell?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 56#p330856

To learn more please go to other posts related to

DEATH , THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD and ...THE HUMAN SOUL

[myth-one.com]

I know, I know, you disagree. Let it go, bro. Grace and peace to you.

I'll let it go as long as you'll agree the wages of sin is death and the dead know not any thing.

That's not asking much.

OK?

[PinSeeker]

I know, I know, you disagree. Let it go, bro. Grace and peace to you.

I'll let it go as long as you'll agree the wages of sin is death and the dead know not any thing.

That's not asking much.

OK?

I'd be happy to do that if you would use the latter ("the dead don't know anything") in its proper biblical context. That's not asking much. But if you did that, then you would be agreeing with me... which would be awesome!

So, as of now, no, not OK. But we can still let it go, can we not? As in agreeing to disagree? That's not asking much, either.

[myth-one.com]

I know, I know, you disagree. Let it go, bro. Grace and peace to you.

I'll let it go as long as you'll agree the wages of sin is death and the dead know not any thing.

That's not asking much.

OK?

I'd be happy to do that if you would use the latter ("the dead don't know anything") in its proper biblical context. That's not asking much. But if you did that, then you would be agreeing with me... which would be awesome!

So, as of now, no, not OK. But we can still let it go, can we not? As in agreeing to disagree? That's not asking much, either.

Here is the verse:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

It says "the dead know not any thing."

What is your private interpretation?

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 131 by JehovahsWitness]

The words, “soul� and “spirit,� are employed in varying senses within the different biblical contexts in which they may be found. However, “spirit� may refer to the “inward man� (2 Corinthians 4:16) that is fashioned in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27), and thus be a synonym of “soul.� Solomon noted that the “spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD� (Proverbs 20:27); this is an allusion to that element of man that distinguishes him from the beasts of the earth. It is in this context that I am using and equating the terms.

In conclusion, we disagree. A large part of the problem, I think, is JWs refusal to acknowledge the triune nature of God and the Holy Spirit as the third Person of the Godhead. But, well, again, we disagree. I'm sure you're as surprised as I am.

Grace and peace to you, JW.

[PinSeeker]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- "the dead know not any thing."

What is your private interpretation?

Well, first, I'll say what it DOES NOT mean (again):

It does not support annihilationism (the unsaved ceasing to exist). Other passages from the Bible refute this thinking:

• "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:46; here, Jesus says that there are two options for eternity for everyone, either eternal punishment or eternal life with Him -- both are eternal.)
  
  Jesus tells of a rich man who goes to hell, or Hades (Luke 16:19–31); there, he has feelings, can communicate, think, reason, and remembers life on earth.
  
  Even another passage in Ecclesiastes disputes annihilationism (4:2–3); Solomon delineates three different states of consciousness and compares the suffering of those who are alive with those who are dead.

Now, what it DOES mean (again):

The theme of the entire book of Ecclesiastes is a view of life from an earthly perspective as referenced by the phrase "under the sun," repeated about 30 times. Solomon explores life on earth without God, concluding that all endeavors are "vanity" or emptiness (Ecclesiastes 1:2 and others). Therefore, in an earthly perspective without God, when someone dies they no longer exist -- they have no knowledge or consciousness from that earthly perspective. Eventually even their identity disappears, from that earthly perspective.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 is chiastic, meaning formulated in an ABBA style:

• A: "For the living know that they will die,
  B "but the dead know nothing,
  B "and they have no more reward,
  A "for the memory of them is forgotten."

The two A lines are parallel, as are the two B lines. The two A lines contemplate the emptiness of life without God, the B lines describe the finality of emptiness of death without God. Nowhere is loss of consciousness or cessation of existence either said or implied.

Now, this is how I interpret it, but it is surely not my "private interpretation"; rather, it is the interpretation of the overwhelmingly vast majority of conservative, Bible-believing Christians.

So. I feel quite sure we disagree still. We can let it go. It's easy. Here, I'll help:

-- DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP BREATH IN --

Hold it! Hold it! HOOOOOOOLD IIIIIIIIIIT..... Okay, let 'er go:

-- LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUD BREATH OUT!!!

See? Isn't that refreshing?

Again, grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

It does not support annihilationism (the unsaved ceasing to exist). Other passages from the Bible refute this thinking:

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:46; here, Jesus says that there are two options for eternity for everyone, either eternal punishment or eternal life with Him -- both are eternal.)

That's correct, the two options are eternal punishment or eternal life.

It's good that you now are OK with that. Hallelujah!

No takes back!

There's only one more hurdle.

Answer this question:

What is the punishment?

[PinSeeker]

It does not support annihilationism (the unsaved ceasing to exist). Other passages from the Bible refute this thinking:

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:46; here, Jesus says that there are two options for eternity for everyone, either eternal punishment or eternal life with Him -- both are eternal.)

That's correct...

<chuckles> The proper response, myth-one, would have been, "Good, PinSeeker, you agree with me. Thank you." I don't, uh... I don't need to know from you what's "correct" and "incorrect."

, the two options are eternal punishment or eternal life. It's good that you now are OK with that. Hallelujah!

Always was good with that, myth-one. ! always was.

No takes back!

Wouldn't dream of it. I rarely "takes back" anything. But I will say... Well, I'll let you finish, here...

There's only one more hurdle.

Ah, yeah. Here it comes again...

Answer this question: What is the punishment?

What you mean for the 47th time? Sure. In the same style as the previous post, first what it's not, and then what it is:

WHAT IT'S NOT:
It's NOT cessation of existence or loss of consciousness (details in last post).

WHAT IT IS:
Bodily -- physical and spiritual -- consignment to hell and eternal judgment by God. Also called the second death.

Shall we go for another?