Importuning the Paraclete

[SallyF]

"Our Father who art in Heaven" is importuning Jehovah/Yahweh the mythological "God the Father" aspect of a Christian concept of God. But there are no reports of Jehovah visiting this planet since he showed his "hindparts" to Moses.

"Dear Lord and Saviour" is importuning the possibly fictional "God the Son" Jesus aspect. But Jesus has not been seen since he Ascended to the ceiling of the Genesis 1 Dome of Heaven.

However

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. John 14:16 NLT

And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we dont know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. Romans 8:26 NLT

Apparently - since no one has had confirmed contact with either Jehovah or Jesus for 2,000 years or so - it's only the "God the Holy Spirit/Ghost" that is here with us down on the floor of the Dome of Heaven.

Would it be more theologically correct to direct our prayerful importunings to the groaning Holy Spirit/Ghost, rather than the other two aspects of a Christian concept of God ?

[JehovahsWitness]

Would it be more theologically correct to direct our prayerful importunings to the groaning Holy Spirit/Ghost, rather than the other two aspects of a Christian concept of God ?

No, as one of of Jehovah's Witnesses I believe all prayer should be addresses uniquely to Jehovah, the Father. Indeed Jesus when asked by his disciples how to pray is reported to have instructed them to do just that.



PRAYER [INDEX]

Why do Christians pray?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 30#p898930

Can we influence God with our prayers?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 33#p898933

How does got communicate with those that pray to him?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 22#p990422

Why did Jesus fall to his knees in the Garden of Gethsemenewhen praying?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p800339

Does one have to pray in Jesus name?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 41#p885441

LEARN MORE :Why Pray? Will God Answer Me?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... /why-pray/

[SallyF]

Would it be more theologically correct to direct our prayerful importunings to the groaning Holy Spirit/Ghost, rather than the other two aspects of a Christian concept of God ?

No, as one of of Jehovah's Witnesses I believe all prayer should be addresses uniquely to Jehovah, the Father. Indeed Jesus when asked by his disciples how to pray is reported to have instructed them to do just that.



PRAYER [INDEX]

Why do Christians pray?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 930#898930

Can we influence God with our prayers?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 933#898933

How does got communicate with those that pray to him?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 422#990422

Why did Jesus fall to his knees in the Garden of Gethsemenewhen praying?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 339#800339

Does one have to pray in Jesus name?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 441#885441

LEARN MORE :Why Pray? Will God Answer Me?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... /why-pray/

All of which is contradicted by:

And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we dont know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. Romans 8:26 NLT

Which - in my view

Means that "God" contradicts itself

Or what humans have dreamed up concerning this version of God

Contradicts what other humans have dreamed up concerning this version of God.

And given that not a soul ever demonstrates that ANY version of God had anything whatsoever to do with ANY of the so-called "Word of God"

And given that MANY such contradictions are apparent

We may reasonably suggest that when we are dealing with "scripture"

We are dealing with garbled, selectively cobbled writings of Middle East men.

Just the whiff of a hint of evidence that Jehovah or Jesus or the Paraclete had anything at all to do with the human writings is likely to make such doubts vanish like the BVM to Heaven.

[marco]

Would it be more theologically correct to direct our prayerful importunings to the groaning Holy Spirit/Ghost, rather than the other two aspects of a Christian concept of God ?

Difficult question since Jesus did not supply a divine remit, though he gave an approximate idea of the magisterium of the Spirit who has a predilection for appearing, like the Greek god Proteus, in funny forms. I can personally say I was visited by the Holy Spirit when I was confirmed and the paper I got said I would receive seven wrapped gifts, the first being wisdom. I am still waiting. The boy fourth in line from me most assuredly did not receive it; I was hoping to hear him speak polysyllabically but he didn't.

Jesus directed us to tell the Father that his home was heaven so presumably God didn't know this. He also asked the Father not to lead us into temptation, but I think the present Pope has amended this blasphemy.

Jesus did say to direct requests through him. (I am the Way). That would suggest prayers in the first instance should be addressed to Jesus. Had he been the prophet people think him to be he could have supplied an email address. Why not?

[marco]

I believe all prayer should be addresses uniquely to Jehovah, the Father. Indeed Jesus when asked by his disciples how to pray is reported to have instructed them to do just that.

Well that puts you on a collision course with Christ. "I am the Way," he said. And if he is the way, you travel via him. Going direct to the Father might work sometimes but to exclude Jesus altogether is to ignore the entire New Testament. If we can simply talk to Yahweh, as Jews have been doing all the time, Jesus is superfluous.

[SallyF]

Would it be more theologically correct to direct our prayerful importunings to the groaning Holy Spirit/Ghost, rather than the other two aspects of a Christian concept of God ?

It seems as though the Holy Ghost knows of a special language in which to communicate effectively with Jehovah.

Perhaps this is what happened with the Magic Ephod of Old testament times.

Given that we use (or pretend to use) smartphones instead of Ephods to communicate with the mythological Jehovah, would it be possible that Google Translate could learn this special Holy Ghost groaning language, and make our prayers to Jehovah and/or Jesus (wherever they may actually be - other than in the imaginations of believers) more effective ?

[1213]

...
Would it be more theologically correct to direct our prayerful importunings to the groaning Holy Spirit/Ghost, rather than the other two aspects of a Christian concept of God ?

I think it would be best to pray like Jesus taught, at least if we are disciples of Jesus.

Pray like this: 'Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy
Matt. 6:9

[Clownboat]

...
Would it be more theologically correct to direct our prayerful importunings to the groaning Holy Spirit/Ghost, rather than the other two aspects of a Christian concept of God ?

I think it would be best to pray like Jesus taught, at least if we are disciples of Jesus.

Pray like this: 'Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy
Matt. 6:9

Why pray in the first place though?
Prayer is just a mechanism so a person can feel like they did something for someone else without actually doing anything.

With a prayer, you can feel like you helped someone who has lost a loved one.
With a prayer, you can feel like you are helping someone with financial issues.
With a prayer, you can feel like you are helping someone with mental health issues.

Easy peasy being a Christian in these situations.
Just imagine being an atheists. You would actually have to do something to help someone in need. No self server prayer to a god is available so you can feel like you have helped.

Prayer is selfish and self serving. If praying to the gods had an affect here on earth, the we could talk.

"I'll pray for you" should be considered a slap in the face to those in need.

[SallyF]

I believe all prayer should be addresses uniquely to Jehovah, the Father. Indeed Jesus when asked by his disciples how to pray is reported to have instructed them to do just that.

Well that puts you on a collision course with Christ. "I am the Way," he said. And if he is the way, you travel via him. Going direct to the Father might work sometimes but to exclude Jesus altogether is to ignore the entire New Testament. If we can simply talk to Yahweh, as Jews have been doing all the time, Jesus is superfluous.

There is NO clear theology in the fitful jumble of the almost innumerable Christianities.

There is NO clear "theo" to have an "ology" about.

We have, in this thread, yet more evidence that the Christianities are a garbled jumble of man-written make-believe.

The men who wrote this propaganda cannot even give clear direction as to which imaginary being must be importuned.

Can anyone demonstrate that we are dealing with anything other than human fantasy ?

[1213]

Why pray in the first place though?
Prayer is just a mechanism so a person can feel like they did something for someone else without actually doing anything.

With a prayer, you can feel like you helped someone who has lost a loved one.
With a prayer, you can feel like you are helping someone with financial issues.
With a prayer, you can feel like you are helping someone with mental health issues.

Easy peasy being a Christian in these situations.
Just imagine being an atheists. You would actually have to do something to help someone in need. No self server prayer to a god is available so you can feel like you have helped.

Prayer is selfish and self serving. If praying to the gods had an affect here on earth, the we could talk.

"I'll pray for you" should be considered a slap in the face to those in need.

Weird ideas you have. But, I am interested to hear, how would you help someone who has lost someone? Can you bring that person back? If not, what you think is helpful in that situation?

For me prayer is to thank God and to say I am sorry, if have done something wrong. I could also ask help from God, if there is something that I cant do that I think would be good. And I really dont think it is selfish to ask help for someone else. But, I think Christian should help, if he can. However, I dont think atheists would have to do anything, because there is no atheistic rule book that tells what they should do. Obviously, it is possible that atheist helps, but I think it is wrong to say would have to do something. For atheists there is no God who says love your neighbor as yourself, like it is for Christians.

And I disagree with the idea that prayer is slab in the face, apparently no one has ever slapped you in the face, if you feel it is the same.