Can you defend biblical morality/relevance? Adam and Eve

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Gone Apostate
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Can you defend biblical morality/relevance? Adam and Eve

Post #1

Post by Gone Apostate »

I'm new to this forum so i apologize if this is an exhausted topic. I would really like to see what everyone has to say about this. I know some of the standard responses but I'm sure that personal approaches to this topic will add much more to the discussion as I have been exposed to it.

How does our understandings of the stories/traditions of our faith color the way we view, and act in, the world today?

If this is a topic that generates some discussion I would like to follow it up with similar ones but for now why don't we just start at the beginning, at least the beginning of the most commonly held religious beliefs - the creation story, from the Old Testament. This is a story shared by Muslims, Jews and Christians – who together make up over 51% of the religious traditions in the world and about 85% of those in America.

According to a 2010 Gallup poll 40% of Americans believe that man was created in his present form, by God no more than 10,000 years ago. This is down from 55% in 2006 (according to a CBS poll)
.
This is more than a theological discussion. It’s a very hot political one as well. There are still stickers in text books across the country, warning that evolution is ‘just a theory’. There is a renewed push in several states to legislate that evolution be taught with more than the usual disclaimers. 60% of biology teachers are afraid to teach the theory and spend little time on it, if at all. 13 percent of the teachers said they "explicitly advocate creationism or intelligent design…�

So here some questions to consider. I would really like to hear people’s answers to some of these however, if they don’t interest you but the topic does, forget them, just share your thoughts. Please and thank you!

1) Is the theory of evolution a threat to your faith? Why or why not?
2) Are there any moral, spiritual lessons to be learned from Adam and Eve? How can we apply them today?
3) Do you believe in the concept of “Original Sin�. If so, how does it impact how you view the world?
4) What, if anything, do feel it says about the character of God, or morality in general?
5) If you believe the story to be a literal, historical account – what are your thoughts on the evidence/science that counters this understanding?
6) If you believe the story has some truth, if not literal, what do you consider it to be? An allegory – if so, of what?
7) If you think the story has no historical validity, how would you describe its role/impact in our society? Would you like to see that role changed? How?

My viewpoint:
I consider it a creation myth on historical par with those of every other faith. I also think there is some seriously questionable morality on the part of the character of God in this story as well. I absolutely don't think that it should be a curriculum topic in science classes, either as young earth creation theory or as intelligent design. The only place I think it has a place it schools would be in a literature or comparative religion class, the latter being one I wish we had as standard curriculum in the US, like they do in the UK.

Thank you for reading and please leave a comment.

Stats:
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... /2122.html
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_public.htm
Teaching the controversy:
http://pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethi ... State.aspx
http://www.antievolution.org/cs/ncse_20110121
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41313808/ns ... e-science/
http://goneapostate.blogspot.com
All your life you live so close to the truth, it becomes a permanent blur in the corner of your eye and when something nudges it into outline, it is like being ambushed by a grotesque

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Re: Can you defend biblical morality/relevance? Adam and Eve

Post #31

Post by Elias Jezebelsbane »

Gone Apostate wrote: 1) Is the theory of evolution a threat to your faith? Why or why not?
No, it is just that, a 'theory' based on limited facts and a lot of falsified evidence.
2) Are there any moral, spiritual lessons to be learned from Adam and Eve? How can we apply them today?
Of course their are. That is why it is included in scripture. For example, one moral lesson clearly presented is the power a wife has in manipulating her husband to follow her into error.
3) Do you believe in the concept of “Original Sin�. If so, how does it impact how you view the world?
It depends on how you define 'Original Sin'. Yes I believe the sins of the parents are visited on their children and as the progenetors of mankind, that means we will have to face and overcome the errors of our forefathers.
4) What, if anything, do feel it says about the character of God, or morality in general?
Until we know ALL the facts, who are we to judge Yah? Even then, what right do we have to judge our creator and His plan.
5) If you believe the story to be a literal, historical account – what are your thoughts on the evidence/science that counters this understanding?
It proves the enemy is still active in deception and the extent they go to to decieve as many as they can.
6) If you believe the story has some truth, if not literal, what do you consider it to be? An allegory – if so, of what?

I don't consider it allegory but many of the terms in Hebrew have meanings that don't accurately translate into English. For example 'waters' in Hebrew can also be a reference to people. We are 'waters'. That parallel is lost in the English translations of the multiple meanings that can apply to words. English has far greater precision in expressing ideas then the ancient Hebrew does so the translations may not be expressing what was intended.
7) If you think the story has no historical validity, how would you describe its role/impact in our society? Would you like to see that role changed? How?
N/A

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Post #32

Post by ConiectoErgoSum »

The above argument begs the question, who's the conspirator? Is the devil conspiring through science to deceive us, or is power-hungry man conspiring through religion to deceive us? Consult the following thread to tackle that dilemma:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=16981

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Post #33

Post by Elias Jezebelsbane »

ConiectoErgoSum wrote:The above argument begs the question, who's the conspirator? Is the devil conspiring through science to deceive us, or is power-hungry man conspiring through religion to deceive us? Consult the following thread to tackle that dilemma:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=16981
IMO, both.

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Post #34

Post by Adamoriens »

Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
ConiectoErgoSum wrote:The above argument begs the question, who's the conspirator? Is the devil conspiring through science to deceive us, or is power-hungry man conspiring through religion to deceive us? Consult the following thread to tackle that dilemma:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=16981
IMO, both.
Perhaps the devil works through scripture and science.

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Post #35

Post by Elias Jezebelsbane »

Adamoriens wrote:
Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
ConiectoErgoSum wrote:The above argument begs the question, who's the conspirator? Is the devil conspiring through science to deceive us, or is power-hungry man conspiring through religion to deceive us? Consult the following thread to tackle that dilemma:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=16981
IMO, both.
Perhaps the devil works through scripture and science.
The enemy absolutely works through the misinterpretation and translations of scripture. I have found all kinds of errors in the translations into English. Some of those errors come from incorrect vowel pointing later applied to the original Hebrew. The original Hebrew contained no vowel pointing. Later Rabbi's applied the vowel points based on their interpretation which can change the meanings of what is being presented. Many translations assume the vowel points to be correct and only translate from that form instead of going back to the original non-pointed Hebrew.

Isa 57:9 is a good example. Most translations use the word 'king' (Melek) verses the name of the pagan deity 'Molech' which means 'shameful king'. It changes the entire interpretation of the passage with a single vowel pointing error. The passage up until that point is dealing with the Canaanite paganism in the grove above and the killing of the children in the valley below. That valley was Hinnom, where Molech worship was conducted. If you don't understand the pagan references and the correlation of the 'grove' outside Jerusalem in relationship to the valley of Hinnom, a translator can easily miss point the passage and misinterpret the proper title of a deity with the noun form of the root word.

Often you have to go back to the original paleo-Hebrew word pictures. For example, YHVH (the name of God) in the paleo-Hebrew symbologism means 'hand/arm, behold, nail, behold' or 'behold the nail [pierced] hand'. Another good example is the Hebrew form of alpha-omega or 'aleph-tav'. The aleph is a symbol of strength and often used in most titles of Yah while the tav is a symbol of the cross or meaning covenant so Aleph-tav is 'strength/God, cross/covenant'.

When Hebrew was converted to the current Babylonian style of writing, most of the underlying meaning in the symbolism was lost. Many translators down through the ages didn't take that into account.

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Post #36

Post by Goat »

Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
Adamoriens wrote:
Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
ConiectoErgoSum wrote:The above argument begs the question, who's the conspirator? Is the devil conspiring through science to deceive us, or is power-hungry man conspiring through religion to deceive us? Consult the following thread to tackle that dilemma:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=16981
IMO, both.
Perhaps the devil works through scripture and science.
The enemy absolutely works through the misinterpretation and translations of scripture. I have found all kinds of errors in the translations into English. Some of those errors come from incorrect vowel pointing later applied to the original Hebrew. The original Hebrew contained no vowel pointing. Later Rabbi's applied the vowel points based on their interpretation which can change the meanings of what is being presented. Many translations assume the vowel points to be correct and only translate from that form instead of going back to the original non-pointed Hebrew.

Isa 57:9 is a good example. Most translations use the word 'king' (Melek) verses the name of the pagan deity 'Molech' which means 'shameful king'. It changes the entire interpretation of the passage with a single vowel pointing error. The passage up until that point is dealing with the Canaanite paganism in the grove above and the killing of the children in the valley below. That valley was Hinnom, where Molech worship was conducted. If you don't understand the pagan references and the correlation of the 'grove' outside Jerusalem in relationship to the valley of Hinnom, a translator can easily miss point the passage and misinterpret the proper title of a deity with the noun form of the root word.

Often you have to go back to the original paleo-Hebrew word pictures. For example, YHVH (the name of God) in the paleo-Hebrew symbologism means 'hand/arm, behold, nail, behold' or 'behold the nail [pierced] hand'. Another good example is the Hebrew form of alpha-omega or 'aleph-tav'. The aleph is a symbol of strength and often used in most titles of Yah while the tav is a symbol of the cross or meaning covenant so Aleph-tav is 'strength/God, cross/covenant'.

When Hebrew was converted to the current Babylonian style of writing, most of the underlying meaning in the symbolism was lost. Many translators down through the ages didn't take that into account.
I would like to see you back up your claims on the meaning of 'YHVH' and on Isaiah 57.

Please show that you are correct, and the Rabbi's are wrong.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #37

Post by Elias Jezebelsbane »

Goat wrote:
Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
Adamoriens wrote:
Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
ConiectoErgoSum wrote:The above argument begs the question, who's the conspirator? Is the devil conspiring through science to deceive us, or is power-hungry man conspiring through religion to deceive us? Consult the following thread to tackle that dilemma:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=16981
IMO, both.
Perhaps the devil works through scripture and science.
The enemy absolutely works through the misinterpretation and translations of scripture. I have found all kinds of errors in the translations into English. Some of those errors come from incorrect vowel pointing later applied to the original Hebrew. The original Hebrew contained no vowel pointing. Later Rabbi's applied the vowel points based on their interpretation which can change the meanings of what is being presented. Many translations assume the vowel points to be correct and only translate from that form instead of going back to the original non-pointed Hebrew.

Isa 57:9 is a good example. Most translations use the word 'king' (Melek) verses the name of the pagan deity 'Molech' which means 'shameful king'. It changes the entire interpretation of the passage with a single vowel pointing error. The passage up until that point is dealing with the Canaanite paganism in the grove above and the killing of the children in the valley below. That valley was Hinnom, where Molech worship was conducted. If you don't understand the pagan references and the correlation of the 'grove' outside Jerusalem in relationship to the valley of Hinnom, a translator can easily miss point the passage and misinterpret the proper title of a deity with the noun form of the root word.

Often you have to go back to the original paleo-Hebrew word pictures. For example, YHVH (the name of God) in the paleo-Hebrew symbologism means 'hand/arm, behold, nail, behold' or 'behold the nail [pierced] hand'. Another good example is the Hebrew form of alpha-omega or 'aleph-tav'. The aleph is a symbol of strength and often used in most titles of Yah while the tav is a symbol of the cross or meaning covenant so Aleph-tav is 'strength/God, cross/covenant'.

When Hebrew was converted to the current Babylonian style of writing, most of the underlying meaning in the symbolism was lost. Many translators down through the ages didn't take that into account.
I would like to see you back up your claims on the meaning of 'YHVH' and on Isaiah 57.

Please show that you are correct, and the Rabbi's are wrong.

Isa 57:5 Enflaming yourselves with idols under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys under the clifts of the rocks?
6 Among the smooth stones of the stream is thy portion; they, they are thy lot: even to them hast thou poured a drink offering, thou hast offered a meat offering. Should I receive comfort in these?
7 Upon a lofty and high mountain hast thou set thy bed: even thither wentest thou up to offer sacrifice.
8 Behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance: for thou hast discovered thyself to another than me, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and made thee a covenant with them; thou lovedst their bed where thou sawest it.
9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

Verse 5 is talking about the activities in the grove on the high place then specifically mentions the 'slaying the children' in the valley. This is a direct reference to Molech worship.

The 'smooth stone' was a reference to the 'mother goddess' of the Canaanite paganism. The stock/tree/Asherah Pole in conjuction with the 'rock' is also referenced in Jer 2.

There are all kinds of references to the pagan practices in the above passage. Verse 9 is about conducting ritual witchcraft in conjunction with Molech worship.


Jer 2:23 How canst thou say, I am not polluted, I have not gone after Baalim? see thy way in the valley, know what thou hast done: thou art a swift dromedary traversing her ways;
24 A wild ass used to the wilderness, that snuffeth up the wind at her pleasure; in her occasion who can turn her away? all they that seek her will not weary themselves; in her month they shall find her.
25 Withhold thy foot from being unshod, and thy throat from thirst: but thou saidst, There is no hope: no; for I have loved strangers, and after them will I go.
26 As the thief is ashamed when he is found, so is the house of Israel ashamed; they, their kings, their princes, and their priests, and their prophets,
27 Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us.
28 But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.

The tree and stone are direct references to Baalim worship of the divine mother and father. Molech was just another of the Baalim worshiped in conjuction. The unwanted children conceived in the ritual orgies of Baal/Ashtoreth were sacrificed to Molech in the valley below.

There are numerous references to the pagan 'rock' that the people trusted in. If you don't know the direct references to the ancient paganism and how the worship of the members of the Baalim interrelationed, you can't interpret the passage correctly.


De 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
...
31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

Here is another reference to the pagan 'rock' that the people trusted instead of Yah.

I have spent several years studying the Baalim worship presented in scripture because I actually knew a high priestess of Ashtoreth over 20 years ago. I wanted to know what scripture had to say verses what I witnessed 1st hand. I KNOW that Isa 57 is a reference to Baalim worship.

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Post #38

Post by Goat »

Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
Goat wrote:
Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
Adamoriens wrote:
Elias Jezebelsbane wrote:
ConiectoErgoSum wrote:The above argument begs the question, who's the conspirator? Is the devil conspiring through science to deceive us, or is power-hungry man conspiring through religion to deceive us? Consult the following thread to tackle that dilemma:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=16981
IMO, both.
Perhaps the devil works through scripture and science.
The enemy absolutely works through the misinterpretation and translations of scripture. I have found all kinds of errors in the translations into English. Some of those errors come from incorrect vowel pointing later applied to the original Hebrew. The original Hebrew contained no vowel pointing. Later Rabbi's applied the vowel points based on their interpretation which can change the meanings of what is being presented. Many translations assume the vowel points to be correct and only translate from that form instead of going back to the original non-pointed Hebrew.

Isa 57:9 is a good example. Most translations use the word 'king' (Melek) verses the name of the pagan deity 'Molech' which means 'shameful king'. It changes the entire interpretation of the passage with a single vowel pointing error. The passage up until that point is dealing with the Canaanite paganism in the grove above and the killing of the children in the valley below. That valley was Hinnom, where Molech worship was conducted. If you don't understand the pagan references and the correlation of the 'grove' outside Jerusalem in relationship to the valley of Hinnom, a translator can easily miss point the passage and misinterpret the proper title of a deity with the noun form of the root word.

Often you have to go back to the original paleo-Hebrew word pictures. For example, YHVH (the name of God) in the paleo-Hebrew symbologism means 'hand/arm, behold, nail, behold' or 'behold the nail [pierced] hand'. Another good example is the Hebrew form of alpha-omega or 'aleph-tav'. The aleph is a symbol of strength and often used in most titles of Yah while the tav is a symbol of the cross or meaning covenant so Aleph-tav is 'strength/God, cross/covenant'.

When Hebrew was converted to the current Babylonian style of writing, most of the underlying meaning in the symbolism was lost. Many translators down through the ages didn't take that into account.
I would like to see you back up your claims on the meaning of 'YHVH' and on Isaiah 57.

Please show that you are correct, and the Rabbi's are wrong.

Isa 57:5 Enflaming yourselves with idols under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys under the clifts of the rocks?
6 Among the smooth stones of the stream is thy portion; they, they are thy lot: even to them hast thou poured a drink offering, thou hast offered a meat offering. Should I receive comfort in these?
7 Upon a lofty and high mountain hast thou set thy bed: even thither wentest thou up to offer sacrifice.
8 Behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance: for thou hast discovered thyself to another than me, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and made thee a covenant with them; thou lovedst their bed where thou sawest it.
9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

Verse 5 is talking about the activities in the grove on the high place then specifically mentions the 'slaying the children' in the valley. This is a direct reference to Molech worship.

The 'smooth stone' was a reference to the 'mother goddess' of the Canaanite paganism. The stock/tree/Asherah Pole in conjuction with the 'rock' is also referenced in Jer 2.

There are all kinds of references to the pagan practices in the above passage. Verse 9 is about conducting ritual witchcraft in conjunction with Molech worship.


Jer 2:23 How canst thou say, I am not polluted, I have not gone after Baalim? see thy way in the valley, know what thou hast done: thou art a swift dromedary traversing her ways;
24 A wild ass used to the wilderness, that snuffeth up the wind at her pleasure; in her occasion who can turn her away? all they that seek her will not weary themselves; in her month they shall find her.
25 Withhold thy foot from being unshod, and thy throat from thirst: but thou saidst, There is no hope: no; for I have loved strangers, and after them will I go.
26 As the thief is ashamed when he is found, so is the house of Israel ashamed; they, their kings, their princes, and their priests, and their prophets,
27 Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us.
28 But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.

The tree and stone are direct references to Baalim worship of the divine mother and father. Molech was just another of the Baalim worshiped in conjuction. The unwanted children conceived in the ritual orgies of Baal/Ashtoreth were sacrificed to Molech in the valley below.

There are numerous references to the pagan 'rock' that the people trusted in. If you don't know the direct references to the ancient paganism and how the worship of the members of the Baalim interrelationed, you can't interpret the passage correctly.


De 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
...
31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

Here is another reference to the pagan 'rock' that the people trusted instead of Yah.

I have spent several years studying the Baalim worship presented in scripture because I actually knew a high priestess of Ashtoreth over 20 years ago. I wanted to know what scripture had to say verses what I witnessed 1st hand. I KNOW that Isa 57 is a reference to Baalim worship.
Yes, it is yelling at Israel, because some strayed.. hwo does that prove your point?

Taking things out of context does not make your point.

How does that show that your claims is correct and the Rabbi's wrong?

Maybe if you use the original hebrew, and do a word by word analysis , it will make better sense...
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: Can you defend biblical morality/relevance? Adam and Eve

Post #39

Post by Ernestalice »

Gone Apostate wrote: 1) Is the theory of evolution a threat to your faith? Why or why not?
2) Are there any moral, spiritual lessons to be learned from Adam and Eve? How can we apply them today?
3) Do you believe in the concept of “Original Sin�. If so, how does it impact how you view the world?
4) What, if anything, do feel it says about the character of God, or morality in general?
5) If you believe the story to be a literal, historical account – what are your thoughts on the evidence/science that counters this understanding?
6) If you believe the story has some truth, if not literal, what do you consider it to be? An allegory – if so, of what?
7) If you think the story has no historical validity, how would you describe its role/impact in our society? Would you like to see that role changed? How?

My viewpoint:
I consider it a creation myth on historical par with those of every other faith. I also think there is some seriously questionable morality on the part of the character of God in this story as well. I absolutely don't think that it should be a curriculum topic in science classes, either as young earth creation theory or as intelligent design. The only place I think it has a place it schools would be in a literature or comparative religion class, the latter being one I wish we had as standard curriculum in the US, like they do in the UK.
1)Not at all. Theory of evolution is just another possibility of history and I care less of that. It's people right to believe that theory, but it won't be any matter or threat to my belief.

2)Adam and Eve are the first human beings to be created. And it is told that humans are the most perfect beings, nearest to God that God has created. Means, we can be perfect despite of how imperfect we are. I know it sounds a bit ridiculous. But to think of it, the time when Adam and Eve broke the God's command and ate the fruit, they could choose. They can be perfect, but at the same time they can do what they should not do.

3)No. I believe that we should bear our own sin. Even if the story was true, blaming ancestor for what is happening now doesn't sound right.

4)I think it's about perfection. Or you could say it "good" in morality words.

5,6)Actually I care less about these and you could say that I might have the same opinion as you. Many films, books, etc. mention about God existence n this is one of them. I just base my belief from this one. Or maybe should I say my morality.

7)As I said before, it's the basic belief that God created world and its inside. So was heaven. Adam and Eve were fallen from heaven because of sin. N people now believe that there is place better than this world, called heaven, that if we apologize to God we could be allowed someday to return to heaven. It's all about hope. At least I think so. But most of people consider it as a MERE historical story (both of believer n non-believer), without considering why they believe it or not.

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Post #40

Post by Logomachist »

Gone Apostate wrote:1) Is the theory of evolution a threat to your faith? Why or why not?
No. I went to a Catholic school; we learned our religion in Religion class and science in Science class, and the two were never portrayed as being in conflict. I believe that scripture needs to be examined in the context of what we already know about the world.

Gone Apostate wrote:2) Are there any moral, spiritual lessons to be learned from Adam and Eve? How can we apply them today?
It isn't my first choice for moral inspiration, but if you look for an overriding theme I would say that it teaches how disobedience and temptation lead to life's harshness. Also, aspiring leaders may benefit from treating the story as a cautionary tale about what happens when you are lax in your leadership and capricious in your punishments- your followers stray.

Gone Apostate wrote:3) Do you believe in the concept of “Original Sin�. If so, how does it impact how you view the world?
  • 1) If it ever existed, I believe it has been rescinded and no longer taints babies, and that is why the Church has dropped teaching about limbo- all babies go to heaven. That's a theoretical, theological interpretation.
  • 2) I never believed that sins are passed on genetically. Truth be told, I always thought original sin was a wonky idea and I never heard an explanation of it that made sense to me.
  • 3) I do believe that we are born selfish and need to learn to be good. If you were to take this psychological insight and translate it into theological language you might wind up with something like original sin, but it has nothing to do with Adam and Eve and (of course) this psychological penchant for evil is not a curse that the Church can handwave away.
Gone Apostate wrote:4a) What, if anything, do you feel it says about the character of God?
If you were to take the story of Adam and Eve at face value and give God a performance evaluation I think God would fail- for threatening a punishment he wouldn't meat out, for planting the tree in the first place, for passing his curse onto the (innocent) descendants of Adam and Eve, for letting the snake live in the garden, for jealously guarding godhood, and for making humans who would be tempted to do evil at all.

4b) What, if anything, do you feel it says about morality in general?
I think the story says little about morality (which stems from empathy and an inner sense of right and wrong) and more about obeying the law.

Gone Apostate wrote:5) If you believe the story to be a literal, historical account – what are your thoughts on the evidence/science that counters this understanding?
I don't view it as history.
Gone Apostate wrote:6) If you believe the story has some truth, if not literal, what do you consider it to be? An allegory – if so, of what?
I'm not going to pick out just one interpretation and say that's the true meaning of the story. I believe the story is a fertile, imaginative telling of creation and many truths may be read into it.
Gone Apostate wrote:7) If you think the story has no historical validity, how would you describe its role/impact in our society? Would you like to see that role changed? How?
There is a minority that uses Genesis to attack science they don't understand, but this probably has less to do with Genesis and more to do with a certain hardline mentality. For most people in most places Adam and Eve has little impact on their daily life.

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