The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #826]

Checkpoint wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:22 am

As a result of being part of this discussion, I have read and reread the relevant verses to gain a much more balanced grasp of what Jesus says in those 16 verses about himself, his sheep, and the fold or sheep pen.

In that process I changed my view on the fold. I had thought he had spoken of two, but then realised there is only one: "the fold/this fold".

Therefore, what has become quite evident to me, is that the best way to come to more fully understand any part of the message Jesus gave in this part of John 10, verses 1-16, is to start where he starts and finish where he finishes.

Rather than, for example, starting with, or majoring on, the last verse, verse 16.

Just one other thing at this point.

He spoke in figurative language, verse 6, as he often did. But he did not interpret it, so that is a major part of what we do.

So, for instance, the fold or sheep pen, is not literal, but represents something else.

[tam]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #831]

Another good and significant verse from the entire exchange:

I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved.


Peace again to you!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #831]

Another good and significant verse from the entire exchange:

I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved.


Peace again to you!

Yes, a significant one that he does interpret for us.

The door to what?

And who or what is "the door-keeper"?

God bless and keep you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #825]

* NOTE We are not talking'of two "types of Christian" there is only one type of Christian but two groups in that some are inside the pen/fold and some are not. The only difference between the sheep seems to be their location.

What then, do you interpret "the pen" to be or to represent?

[JehovahsWitness]

I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved.

The door to what?

And who or what is "the door-keeper"?

Excellent questions Checkpoint. It is very encouragent for me to see you begin to ask questions based on a close examination of the text. It is the ability to do this very thing that leads to greater bible understanding.

Therefore, what has become quite evident to me, is that the best way to come to more fully understand any part of the message Jesus gave in this part of John 10, verses 1-16, is to start where he starts and finish where he finishes

Good. Okay, then lets get started ...

MORE THAN ONE FOLD

JOHN 10: 1-3 NWT

the one who does not enter into the sheepfold through the door but climbs in by another way, that one is a thief and a plunderer.+ 2 But the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep.+ 3 The doorkeeper opens to this one,+ and the sheep listen to his voice.+ He calls his own sheep by name and leads them OUT.

If we understand that Jesus is the shepherd that legitimately enter through a door (If there is a door, we are evidently speaking about a sheepfold/pen) and leads the sheep that listen to him OUT, it is evident Jesus here in verse 1-3 is not refering to the same sheepfold of verse 16. There are therefore (at least) two sheepfolds not one. The first sheepfold one that sheep are lead out of. The second sheepfold the one the sheep are put into. Agreed?

Understanding the first will help us to understand the second. Understanding the second will help us identify the "other sheep".



JW

[Checkpoint]

I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved.

Checkpoint asked:

The door to what?

And who or what is "the door-keeper"?

Excellent questions Checkpoint.

Thanks JW.

But if so, why did you not answer them?

It is very encouragent for me to see you begin to ask questions based on a close examination of the text. It is the ability to do this very thing that leads to greater bible understanding.

That's good.

But the trouble is, it just does not seem to lead us the same way, to be drawing the same conclusions. This thread is an example of that, time and again.

MORE THAN ONE FOLD

Oh?

That's what I claimed, and you called me out on it, remember?

Then I changed to one fold.

You surely remember that, JW!

JOHN 10: 1-3 NWT

the one who does not enter into the sheepfold through the door but climbs in by another way, that one is a thief and a plunderer.+ 2 But the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep.+ 3 The doorkeeper opens to this one,+ and the sheep listen to his voice.+ He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

If de understand that Jesus is the shepherd that legitimately enter through a door (a door that is not himself) and leads the sheep that listen to him OUT, it is evident Jesus here in verse 1-3 is not refering to the same sheepfold (or door) of verse 16. There are therefore (at least) two sheepfolds not one. The first sheepfold one that sheep are lead out of. The second later sheepfold they are put into.


JW

A second sheepfold?

That "they are put into"?

How do you find that in verse 16?

[JehovahsWitness]

How do you find that in verse 16?

Its not in verse 16. Did you not suggest we move from focusing on verse16 to examining the whole?

How do you find that ....?

I just explained how. Here it is again...

MORE THAN ONE FOLD

JOHN 10: 1-3 NWT

the one who does not enter into the sheepfold through the door but climbs in by another way, that one is a thief and a plunderer.+ 2 But the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep.+ 3 The doorkeeper opens to this one,+ and the sheep listen to his voice.+ He calls his own sheep by name and leads them OUT.

If we understand that in this first section, Jesus is the shepherd that legitimately enters through a door (If there is a door, we are evidently speaking about a sheepfold/pen) and leads the sheep that listen to him OUT, it is evident Jesus here in verse 1-3 is not refering to the same sheepfold of verse 16 . There are therefore (at least) two sheepfolds not one. The first sheepfold one that sheep are lead out of. The second sheepfold the one the sheep are put into. .... Understanding the first will help us to understand the second. Understanding the second will help us identify the "other sheep".

[Checkpoint]

How do you find that in verse 16?

Its not in verse 16. Did you not suggest we move from focusing on verse16 to examining the whole?

How do you find that ....?

I just explained how. Here it is again...

MORE THAN ONE FOLD

JOHN 10: 1-3 NWT

the one who does not enter into the sheepfold through the door but climbs in by another way, that one is a thief and a plunderer.+ 2 But the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep.+ 3 The doorkeeper opens to this one,+ and the sheep listen to his voice.+ He calls his own sheep by name and leads them OUT.

If we understand that in this first section, Jesus is the shepherd that legitimately enters through a door (If there is a door, we are evidently speaking about a sheepfold/pen) and leads the sheep that listen to him OUT, it is evident Jesus here in verse 1-3 is not refering to the same sheepfold of verse 16 . There are therefore (at least) two sheepfolds not one. The first sheepfold one that sheep are lead out of. The second sheepfold the one the sheep are put into. .... Understanding the first will help us to understand the second. Understanding the second will help us identify the "other sheep".

Yes, I did say that, and yes, you did explain how you got there.

So in this post I have no further comment.

I will be, hopefully this week, doing my own explanation/interpretation, of the whole teaching he gave in those 16 verses, that often use figurative language.

[Revelations won]

The Kingdom of God

Dear JW,

After reviewing many pages of your claims and observing many unanswered questions from others, I find this amusing to say the least. For example:

Checkpoint clearly pointed out:

“Matthew 28:

18 And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples from all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

18 And Jesus came and said to them, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Since ALL authority in heaven and earth has been given to Jesus Christ, I would ask the question, if Jesus Christ and Jehovah are not one and the same person, then it would be obvious that Jehovah now had no authority in heaven or earth.

How do you deal with this dilemma?


Checkpoint also raised a very powerful question:

“How could Jesus be appointed king in 1914 if he was given "all authority" in 33 CE?”

I did not observe a clear and definitive answer from you regarding this question posed by Checkpoint.

You also claim that God established his governing “kingdom” in 1914.

Is this kingdom ruled by the “Lord of lords and King of kings”?

You indicate the there are also 144,000 co-rulers or administrators assisting in the administration of his kingdom.

Who are these administrators?

When were they chosen or appointed?

Do you have their names?

How were they chosen?

I think you indicated that these 144,000 have been chosen during this period of well over 100 years?

I might point out that in Amos 3:7 it is clearly stated that God will do nothing , but what he will reveal unto his secrets unto servants the prophets.

Who are the prophets that he revealed this major event of establishing this kingdom in 1914?

I look forward to hearing your answers to ALL of my questions.

Kind regards,
RW

[JehovahsWitness]

The Kingdom of God

Dear JW,

{snip}

Dear RW

You posted exactly the same post on the 20th of September LINK here
viewtopic.php?p=1021859#p1021859

You asked among other things ...

if the Kingdom is rule by the Lord of Lords and I posted an answer..HERE
viewtopic.php?p=1021861#p1021861

I went on to address other issues you raised HERE
viewtopic.php?p=1021863#p1021863

.... and again HERE....
viewtopic.php?p=1021864#p1021864

So as you can see I have answered the questions asked of me. I would add however that I feel no compulsion To comment on every thought in every post or to answer every question in every post, especially when they are questions have answered many times already. Copy pasting your supposed amusements at this fact once a month is unlikely to have any effect. May I suggest you either consult my previous answers or serve of your mirth to offset any disapointment my decisions may cause.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GOD'S KINGDOM, MILLENIAL RULE and ...1914