Matthew S - Islam in General

To discuss Islam topics and issues

Moderator: Moderators

Matthew S Islam
Student
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:43 am

Matthew S - Islam in General

Post #1

Post by Matthew S Islam »

Assalamu alaykum - Greetings to everyone

Didn't want to derail the thread in the Christian forum so I decided to create a general thread in this section.

Matthew S Islam
Student
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:43 am

Post #2

Post by Matthew S Islam »

Well, a major distinction between Islam and Christianity is that Muslims claim to possess the exact Scripture that was rehearsed by the Prophet(pbuh) and his companions. In this space, there would be no reason for anyone who claims to believe in the Prophet to ever question the accuracy of his revelations--lest he question the faith itself. This doesn't mean that Islam is free from any exegetical ambiguity or scholarly disputes; however, the disputes are surrounding our understanding of the revelation, and not the source of revelation itself.

Regarding the Messiah, it is expected that all non-Muslim investigations would differ with us on this issue. We believe that God Divinely intervened and saved the Messiah by raising Jesus to Himself. God miraculously caused the event to 'appear' to have taken place as a means of punishing the Jews for their disbelief and failing to keep the covenants.
Without involving theology, history must always presume a natural explanation of past events or else there wouldn't be any way to determine anything. Surely, there aren't any people on this planet who believe that a crucified man 2000 years ago never died and is currently in heaven right now awaiting the Anti-Christ and the end times.

Matthew S Islam
Student
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:43 am

Post #3

Post by Matthew S Islam »

polonius wrote: Matthew S posted:
Well, a major distinction between Islam and Christianity is that Muslims claim to possess the exact Scripture that was rehearsed by the Prophet(pbuh) and his companions. In this space, there would be no reason for anyone who claims to believe in the Prophet to ever question the accuracy of his revelations--lest he question the faith itself.
RESPONSE: That seems identical to Christianity except that our stories were written 40 to 60 years after the events they claim by non-witnesses.
Greetings

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Islam and the Quran, but the New Testament is very different from the Quran.

The Quran is not a biographical narrative like the 4 Gospels are. The Quran is believed to be the literal Speech of Allah which He revealed to Muhammad. Within it contains theology, the law, morality/spirituality and stories of previous generations.

Seldom does the Quran detail events from Muhammad's life. We have another collection of Divine guidance called the "Hadith" which are the sayings and instructions of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). If anything, one could say that the "Hadith" most resemble the Bible. However, the Hadith collection was transmitted through 'single chain reports' via the disciples of Muhammad himself.

Matthew S Islam
Student
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:43 am

Post #4

Post by Matthew S Islam »

Muhammad claimed he got his text from God. And people choose to believe this. The Islamic version of the Nativity takes place under a palm tree, so we have an Arab setting, with of course lots of fresh water. Muhammad was more persuasive than the Evangelists; he was an astute trader and a fine leader. He had learned lots about Judaism and Christianity, and made appropriate changes - Allah forbid that Allah should have a son is amusingly convincing. And of course, with Jesus demoted to one of many, Muhammad enjoys the status of being the final prophet. Paul would weep!
People would believe in Muhammad due to a variety of different reasons; many of which have been recorded in our history books and narration collections. In general, the Arabs were either mesmerized after hearing the Quran's recitation, or they accepted his monotheistic preaching, and others were satisfied with his character and trusted him due to his 40 year track-record amongst them.
It is amazing what people will accept. What a work of art is man! This divine joke against the Jews is political rather than religious. I suppose the secret is to feed peope what they want to hear. There is nothing to choose between the absurdities in Christianity and the absurdites in Islam. The correcting pen from the 7th century is too obvious.
I sincerely believe that Islam presents the best case for Jesus amongst the Abrahamic faiths.

1) Jesus was the Messiah
2) The Jews rejected the Messiah wrongfully and went as far as to 'kill him'
3) God saved the Messiah and dismantled his commitment to Israel

God made the crucifixion of Jesus 'appear' to have taken place to allow the leaders of Israel to establish their own destiny as a failed nation. Had Jesus disappeared from the scene randomly without facing judgement from his people, then his truthfulness would have been questionable among all parties, and he wouldn't have accomplished anything in his first coming other than stalling for time.

What's interesting about Islam's proposal is that Jesus doesn't actually die, which dismisses the problem of a 'failed Messiah'. Moreover, God's rescue of Jesus saves us from the theological contraversies which naturally arose following his untimely crucifixion. However, the appearance of his death was required for God to justify ending his relationship with Israel and establishing their monotheistic successors; who unlike them, accepted Jesus as the Messiah; and unlike the Christians, did not go to extremes in their Christology.

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12235
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 14 times

Post #5

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 4 by Matthew S]

It is my understanding that only Muslim thinkers hold that Jesus was never crucified. Secular, Jewish, and Christian thinkers and scholars pretty much universally agree that Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross. And many (if not most)non-Muslims agree, from a variety of religious backgrounds.

What, in your mind, (and in Islamic thought), is the role of the Messiah? To Jews, it would have been to usher in the Messianic age, one of peace and justice with Israel's primacy among the nations. The Jewish notion of Messiah was another righteous King, in the fashion of King David.

The Christian notion of Messiah is a sacrificial victim, God's Son who died to "pay for" our sins.

So what is the Islamic idea of Jesus-as-Messiah? I understand that Islam regards him as a great prophet, but what do they mean when they say Jesus was (or was supposed to have been) Messiah to the Jews?

And I vehemently disagree with the idea that Israel or the Jewish people have been punished by God for rejecting Jesus as Messiah. Punished by Christians throughout the ages, yes. But remember, during the Middle Ages, Muslims actually sheltered Jews from Christian persecution, and many Jews sought and had refuge in Muslim nations.

Perhaps soon, Israel, the Jewish people and Muslims will regain that good relationship. One can hope and pray. ;)

It might be worth noting that most Jews, (with the exception of some ultra-Orthodox) do not want the Temple rebuilt nor do they want to see the Dome of the Rock torn down. Judaism has outgrown it's need for animal sacrifice, to paraphrase a wise Rabbi I think it was, "no one wants a slaughterhouse in the heart of Jerusalem anymore".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18145
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 437 times
Been thanked: 672 times
Contact:

Re: Matthew S - Islam in General

Post #6

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by Matthew S]

My personal view is all divinely inspired scripture ended in the first century with the death of the last of the Aposltes and the Qur'an is a Satanic attempt to distract those that search for truth to a path leading to false religion which is ultimately the tool of Satan.

The thousands of bible manuscripts, some even dating to the time of Jesus and before allow us to have confidence that what we are reading today is what the Prophets and inspired men penned; It's internal harmony and cohesion supports each books legitimate right to be part of the canon and the presence of the Divine name (YHWH) serve as an ultimate signature of authenticity that the writings originate with the True and living God.



JW


RELATED POSTS

Is the name Mohamed in the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 576#800576
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Matthew S Islam
Student
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:43 am

Post #7

Post by Matthew S Islam »

It is my understanding that only Muslim thinkers hold that Jesus was never crucified. Secular, Jewish, and Christian thinkers and scholars pretty much universally agree that Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross. And many (if not most)non-Muslims agree, from a variety of religious backgrounds.
That's right. We believe that Jesus himself was never placed on the cross:

"And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain." [4:157]

Just to be clear though, we do believe that the crucifixion took place just like everybody else. However we don't believe that Jesus himself was placed on the cross. As the verse above expresses " but [another] was made to resemble him to them".

Hence, our position is not really at odds with history. All we're doing is adding a theological notion to the events which took place.
What, in your mind, (and in Islamic thought), is the role of the Messiah? To Jews, it would have been to usher in the Messianic age, one of peace and justice with Israel's primacy among the nations. The Jewish notion of Messiah was another righteous King, in the fashion of King David.
The Messiah was suppose to bring a conclusion to the succession of Prophethood that Allah favoured the children of Isaac(pbuh) and Jacob(pbuh) with.

It is known from the previous scriptures that the Messiah was expected to restore God's Kingdom until the end of time. Islam appears to be more in line with this notion, seeing that our eschatology involves the return of the Messiah who will rule over Allah's Kingdom and slay the Anti-Christ.

The Christians view Jesus' first coming as some form of a plan which the Messiah intended and fulfilled. He was supposed to be rejected and he was supposed to be crucified--that was his mission.
Muslims on the other hand view Jesus' first coming as a religious disaster and a time in history which brought about the Anger of Allah.
So what is the Islamic idea of Jesus-as-Messiah? I understand that Islam regards him as a great prophet, but what do they mean when they say Jesus was (or was supposed to have been) Messiah to the Jews?

And I vehemently disagree with the idea that Israel or the Jewish people have been punished by God for rejecting Jesus as Messiah. Punished by Christians throughout the ages, yes. But remember, during the Middle Ages, Muslims actually sheltered Jews from Christian persecution, and many Jews sought and had refuge in Muslim nations.
Initially, Jesus was the Messiah who sent to the Jews as a fulfillment of God's Religious Plans. The Jews rejected their Messiah because they weren't pleased with everything he was calling them to. As a result, the Jews became disbelievers in the God of their forefathers and have lost the opportunity to obtain the Godly Blessings that were offered to them throughout their Scriptures. The Jewish religion is now outdated and fundamentally flawed because it rejected the Messiah; and at this point, all of they're pre-planning and remaining patient for is the Dajjal (False Messiah), who will fulfill their political objectives in this life for some time, and then lead them to the Hell Fire for all of eternity (Excuse me if it is hostile, but it is the reality of our beliefs).

We believe that Jesus will be the one who kills the false Messiah. He will do so by looking into his eyes and causing him to burn and melt. Following this, Jesus will slay him with a sword as a way of reassuring the Muslims that the "Greatest Tribulation (Fitna)" has come to an end.

And God knows Best.

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12235
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 14 times

Re: Matthew S - Islam in General

Post #8

Post by Elijah John »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Prophets and inspired men penned; It's internal harmony and cohesion supports each books legitimate right to be part of the canon and the presence of the Divine name (YHWH) serve as an ultimate signature of authenticity that the writings originate with the True and living God.
Tell that to Paul, who seldom if ever preached the Divine name.

I read the name "Christ" quite often in the New Testament. Paul preaches it all the time. But since those same books do not contain, or at least emphasize the name YHVH, shouldn't we then diregard them? By your logic, it would seem so.

That would leave us only with the Hebrew Bible and small fragments of the New Testament as "authentic" and coming from the Living God.

After so long on these boards, it amazes me that you can assert "internal harmony" of the Bible when it has been demonstrated time and time again that this assertion is simply not true.

If we go by the criteria of internal harmony, I think the Quar'an, though not perfect, would win.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 18591
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 214 times
Contact:

Post #9

Post by otseng »

JehovahsWitness wrote:the Qur'an is a Satanic attempt to distract those that search for truth to a path leading to false religion which is ultimately the tool of Satan.
Moderator Comment

You are free to debate why you think the Quran is false, but avoid classifying it as Satanic. If you consider it uncivil for someone else to label your holy book as Satanic, then we should do likewise for another's holy book.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #10

Post by marco »

Matthew S wrote:

Just to be clear though, we do believe that the crucifixion took place just like everybody else. However we don't believe that Jesus himself was placed on the cross. As the verse above expresses " but [another] was made to resemble him to them".

Hence, our position is not really at odds with history. All we're doing is adding a theological notion to the events which took place.

But we don't know the name of the poor soul who was substituted for Christ on the cross? Muhammad's explanation of the stories he'd heard as a youth, from Christian and Jew, is commendable, as are many of the things he uses to advertise his heaven (fruit, fresh water - just what nomads need) but those hearing him woud have been more impressed by his booty got from raiding caravans or from skirmishes and from the prisoners taken as concubines. There's no harm in giving heaven a helping hand.
Go well.

Post Reply