You Are No Longer You!

[POI]

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment. Hence, you must have a portion of your freewill stripped from you (in some capacity).
2) You will not mourn for any of your loved ones, which do not also make it into Heaven; as Heaven has no mourning, as it is Heaven after all.

Which begs a follow up question....

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena. Humans are deemed perpetual sinners. Thus, if God must change all, for whom He elects, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

[POI]

Prior to proceeding, I have to ask.... Are you actually going to engage my responses this time? I hope so. I too do not like to waste my time.

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment.

This is not true. The Devil spent a lot of his time in heaven and scripture even describes a war between the Michel (The resurrected Jesus) and his angels and the devil and his demons that resulted in them being thrown OUT of heaven. Logically then, heaven was previously a place where there was demonic forces and sin.



If heaven is presently as "sinless environment" this has not always been the case. Thus, being free from sin is evidently a choice; and choices indicate free will according to the standard dictionary definition thereof.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SATAN THE DEVIL and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION

Even if I concede what you have stated, my (2) questions still remain untouched. The story line of Satan and his followers being cast away, happened before. Is Heaven now a sinless place? If not, why call it Heaven? If sin still exists, what sin is permitted; all of it, as it is allowed now on earth?

And to answer your comment above, regarding "being free from sin is evidently a choice; and choices indicate free will according to the standard dictionary definition thereof", I see a major flaw in this argument.

We are said to have free will now. And yet, everyone will sin; according to the Bible. Thus, continuing the current status quo into Heaven would be NO different, unless God makes some sort of necessary change. And again, if God makes some necessary change, for ALL humans, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

[JehovahsWitness]

Prior to proceeding, I have to ask.... Are you actually going to engage my responses this time? I hope so. I too do not like to waste my time.

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment.

This is not true. The Devil spent a lot of his time in heaven and scripture even describes a war between the Michel (The resurrected Jesus) and his angels and the devil and his demons that resulted in them being thrown OUT of heaven. Logically then, heaven was previously a place where there was demonic forces and sin.



If heaven is presently as "sinless environment" this has not always been the case. Thus, being free from sin is evidently a choice; and choices indicate free will according to the standard dictionary definition thereof.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SATAN THE DEVIL and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION

Even if I concede what you have stated, my (2) questions still remain untouched. The story line of Satan and his followers being cast away, happened before. ...

How is when it happened relevant? The point is WHERE it happened and why. I take your argument is that individuals HAVE to do good if they are in that particular location (heaven). ie they dont make the conscious choice, weighing the pros and cons and coming to an independent decision. But rather they will become like robots, always obliged to do good because they are in heaven.

If that was your argument, the above destroys it. If that was not your point, please clarify what your point actually is, because I must have misunderstood.




JW

[tam]

Peace to you,

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

Another perspective:

For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

If sin that compels them to do what they do not want to do, is removed, then they would be free to be who they truly are, doing what they truly desire. See also Matt 13:41

Not all desire or even care about such things, not all care or desire to show mercy and love to others; some might desire to do the exact opposite. But - and this is just an example: if a person does desire to show mercy or to be patient, etc, but perhaps they have a bad temper and lash out in anger instead (later feeling remorseful), then it is not THEY who truly desire to lash out at people. That is something one must work to overcome - but it shows that the flesh is at enmity with the spirit.

But I mean, you're right that we will be changed. Not just from this flesh (with sin and death in it) to the new body (with LIFE, holy spirit, in it)... but also the heart, if someone learns by experience (perhaps even pain and suffering of their own so as to learn empathy). Anyone in Christ is in training to live in peace, and act in love and mercy. And of course Christ can grant fruits of the spirit (love, joy, peace, kindness, patience, etc.)

But people from all walks of life and beliefs can also learn and grow, even learning to be merciful, to forgive, to have empathy, kindness compassion. For some people those things are inherent. For others it might be a bit of both. That doesn't mean that someone has taken away their free will and forced them to be some kind of rebooted robot.

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment. Hence, you must have a portion of your freewill stripped from you (in some capacity).

Or you no longer have the desire - for one, we will have a new body (a body with LIFE in it; rather than a body with sin and death in it) - and so the flesh will no longer be at enmity with the spirit.

2) You will not mourn for any of your loved ones, which do not also make it into Heaven; as Heaven has no mourning, as it is Heaven after all.

OR... we don't mourn for our loved ones because they are also covered by the blood of the lamb. Just as the entire household was saved from Death in Egypt, as long as the blood of the lamb was on the doorpost (which took faith to obey that command). The entire house (and all in that house) was passed over. Just as Noah saved his entire household in the flood, due to his faith. Just as Rahab saved her entire household when she helped Israel, due to her faith.

And more than just Christians are invited into the Kingdom - some are invited into that Kingdom as subjects of the Kingdom (whereas those in Christ are to reign with Him as kings and priests for a thousand years). But all receive eternal life, and all are blessed. This also goes to the first question you asked, because love begets love. Love from God and His Son (which includes mercy and forgiveness) begets love for God and for His Son... and also for our fellow man. Because if love is what is in you, love is what comes OUT of you.



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

We are said to have free will now. And yet, everyone will sin; according to the Bible. Thus, continuing the current status quo into Heaven would be NO different, unless God makes some sort of necessary change.

And why in your opinion would that "necessary change" be the removal of the capacity to make independent decisions? This is very dichotomous thinking.



JW

[POI]

Prior to proceeding, I have to ask.... Are you actually going to engage my responses this time? I hope so. I too do not like to waste my time.

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment.

This is not true. The Devil spent a lot of his time in heaven and scripture even describes a war between the Michel (The resurrected Jesus) and his angels and the devil and his demons that resulted in them being thrown OUT of heaven. Logically then, heaven was previously a place where there was demonic forces and sin.



If heaven is presently as "sinless environment" this has not always been the case. Thus, being free from sin is evidently a choice; and choices indicate free will according to the standard dictionary definition thereof.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SATAN THE DEVIL and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION

Even if I concede what you have stated, my (2) questions still remain untouched. The story line of Satan and his followers being cast away, happened before. ...

How is when it happened relevant? The point is WHERE it happened and why. I take your argument is that individuals HAVE to do good if they are in that particular location (heaven). ie they dont make the conscious choice, weighing the pros and cons and coming to an independent decision. But rather they will become like robots, always obliged to do good because they are in heaven.

If that was your argument, the above destroys it. If that was not your point, please clarify what your point actually is, because I must have misunderstood.

Yes, it seems you may have misunderstood, in part?.?.

Your argument is that we have a choice. And yet, the Bible admits we will all fall short. Which means we all still sin, regardless of how hard we try not to... Thus, according to your argument, no one would get to heaven, UNLESS heaven allows continued sin? Does it? If so, are all the same sins permitted, as they are on earth? If so, why call it Heaven?

[POI]

We are said to have free will now. And yet, everyone will sin; according to the Bible. Thus, continuing the current status quo into Heaven would be NO different, unless God makes some sort of necessary change.

And why in your opinion would that "necessary change" be the removal of the capacity to make independent decisions? This is very dichotomous thinking.



JW

According to your definition, free choice or free will allows for the continued ability to make choices; for which God could deem as sin. God states all will sin. Does sin continue in Heaven? If so, what sin, all of it?

Logically, something would have to change, after your death, so you no long commit sin. Otherwise, you will sin the same there, as you do here. What is that change? And couldn't this change just be made for ALL?

[JehovahsWitness]

We are said to have free will now. And yet, everyone will sin; according to the Bible. Thus, continuing the current status quo into Heaven would be NO different, unless God makes some sort of necessary change.

And why in your opinion would that "necessary change" be the removal of the capacity to make independent decisions? This is very dichotomous thinking.



JW

According to your definition, free choice or free will allows for the continued ability to make choices; for which God would deem as sin.

Its not really "my" definition, just the standard meaning of the term. Anyway...I see you did not answer the question. May suggest you not try and preemptively raise objections based on an theology you cannot possible know if I hold to and simply answer the question.

You seem (correct me if I am wrong) to be suggesting the only way to a sinless environment is the removal of free will and my question is ... why? After all, very few of us choose to sexually abuse our children, but few would suggest that is because we are sophisticated robots and someone else has told us not to, rather than we find the option morally repugnant. In short even now we can choose systematically never engage in some behaviours because we dont want to; why then can those individuals in heaven not do the same without being reduced to fancy computers?

[POI]

Its not really "my" definition, just the standard meaning of the term. Anyway...I see you did not answer the question. May suggest you not try and preemptively raise objections based on an theology you cannot possible know if I hold to and simply answer the question.

You seem (correct me if I am wrong) to be suggesting the only way to a sinless environment is the removal of free will and my question is ... why?

This is your assumption. I stated:

"something would have to change, after your death, so you no long commit sin. Otherwise, you will sin the same there, as you do here. What is that change?"

Freewill is a word, for which has multiple meanings, in multiple contexts. In your case of the word, in this context, we need to know if Heaven is sinless? If it is, then the Heaven occupant can still possess their 'freewill', but that does not mean God allows all. Maybe when a participant wants to do something, for which God deems as sin, God deflects such wanted action(s)? Seems reasonable, as many Christians claim that God answers prayer, via protection/etc. If God intervenes, the violator does not have their freewill prohibited, or do they?

And speaking of unanswered questions, I asked of you (still unanswered).

1. Does God permit sin in Heaven?
2. If so, the same sins He permits here on earth?
3. Doesn't the Bible assert that we all sin?
4. If so, why call it Heaven, if nothing changes about the topic of continued acknowledged sin?

After all, very few of us choose to sexually abuse our children, but few would suggest that is because we are sophisticated robots and someone else has told us not to, rather than we find the option morally repugnant.

The "robot argument' is yours, not mine Please do not try and place words into my mouth. You've mentioned robots twice now.

In short even now we can choose systematically never engage in some behaviours because we dont want to; why then can those individuals in heaven not do the same without being reduced to fancy computers?

I already answered this several times. Because the Bible asserts we are all sinners. I'll await your response to the (4) necessary questions above.

[Miles]

If heaven is presently as "sinless environment" this has not always been the case. Thus, being free from sin is evidently a choice;

Curious as to why "being free from sin is evidently a choice;" necessarily follows from "If heaven is presently as "sinless environment" this has not always been the case."


.

[bjs1]

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment. Hence, you must have a portion of your freewill stripped from you (in some capacity).

A former alcoholic, who has gone through a 12-step program and no longer drinks, might meet a former acquaintance who is still controlled by addiction. The current alcoholic might say to his recovering friend, “You don’t base your life around your next drink anymore. You’re not free to drink anymore. You are no longer you!”

The sober man could rightly reply, “I finally am me! I am the me that is not controlled by alcohol. I am the me that I wanted to be even while I was drinking. I am not free to both drink and be the real me, so I choose freedom from alcohol.”