Abraham’s Visitors

[MissKate13]

An Interlinear will show that YHWH was one of three who paid a visit to Abraham. YHWH came to earth as a man. He and the other visitors ate food as any human would do. It was YHWH who Abraham repeatedly asked if there were any righteous men in Sodom would He still destroy it?

If we can believe that YHWH came to earth in the form of a human being, ate and spoke as a man with Abraham, how is it some refuse to believe YHWH came to earth as a man called Jesus?

[JehovahsWitness]

GENESIS 18: 13 Then Jehovah said to Abraham: “...
GENESIS 18: 17 Jehovah said: “...
GENESIS 18: 20 Then Jehovah said: “...
GENESIS 18: 26.Then Jehovah said: “...

DID JEHOVAH REALLY SPEAK TO ABRAHAM ?

Yes absolutely. Jehovah spoke and Abraham heard the words Jehovah had spoken. The question is, did Abraham SEE Jehovah as he was speaking? Since Jehovah (YHWH ) Himself explains "No man can see me and live" Abraham (who was a man (human)) could not have seen Jehovah (YHWH) as he spoke to him.

Who speaks in Genesis 18:13, 17, 20, 26, YHWH or an angel?

Possibly both. Whether the angel, representing Jehovah, relayed the words of God to Abraham. Or Abraham literally heard the voice of God (through the angel) the bible does not say, what we do know is Yahweh (Jehovah/YHWH) did indeed speak to Abraham.

To illustrate When you speak to somone on the phone you dont say "I had a conversation with my telephone" even though your words were in fact spoken in the direction of your phone. You were literally speaking to the instument in your hand, which transmitted your friends words to you. But when you speak about your conversation you cut out the "midddle man" (because the phone had no input), it was just an instrument used to communicate.

IS THERE SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE IDEA OF ANGELS BEING CALLED "JEHOVAH" BECAUSE THEY ARE ACTING ON HIS BEHALF?

Yes, note these parallel verses speaking of Moses' encounter at the burning bush:

Exodus 3:4, 6 : God called unto him out of the midst of the bush...
Exodus 3: 2 the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush.

Evidently the account here refers to the angel as God. Further support for this view is found at Hosea 12v4 which reads : He [Jacob] kept contending with an angel and prevailed." Yet by, Jacobs own recounting of the same event he says " “I have seen God face-to-face, yet my life was preserved.” (see Genesis 32:30)









RELATED POSTS

Who visited Abraham [GENESIS 18:1]?
viewtopic.php?p=1109913#p1109913

Genesis 32:30 contradict John 1:18?
viewtopic.php?p=867226#p867226

Did the 70 elders literally see God?
viewtopic.php?p=1095551#p1095551

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

ANGELS, "SEEING" GOD and ...THE TRINITY DEBUNKED

[Difflugia]

The question is, did Abraham SEE Jehovah as he was speaking?

Absolutely.

Genesis 18:22-23

And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before Jehovah. And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou consume the righteous with the wicked?

Case closed. I SAID "CASE CLOSED!"

Since Jehovah (YHWH ) Himself explains "No man can see me and live" Abraha (who was a man (human)) could not phave seen Jehoav as he spoke to him.

Since this contradicts other verses in Genesis and elsewhere, it must mean something other than what it says.

Both. Evidently an angel, representing Jehovah, relayed the words of God to Abraham.

Evidently, God meant something other than what He appears to have said.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #49]

What you are doing is pitting Scripture against Scripture. Both the account in Genesis 18-19 and Exodus 33:20 must be reconciled.

Genesis 18:1 tells us YHWH appeared to Abraham.

Genesis 18:2 says Abraham saw three men standing by him.

Genesis 18:4 tells us that Abraham offers to have water brought for them, and tells the three visitors to rest themselves under the tree.

Genesis 18:6-8 says that Abraham had food and drink prepared for the visitors. He stood by them under the trees and watched them eat.

I didn’t make this story up. It’s what the Scriptures say.

Abraham saw YHWH in human form. That’s how we reconcile Genesis 18-19 with Exodus 33:20. We let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #52]

Jehovah’s Witness is forcing his interpretation into Genesis 18:1, which clearly states that Jehovah appeared to Abraham as a man. An angel isn’t mentioned.

He uses Exodus 33:20 to refute Genesis 18:1, but an honest reading of the eighteenth chapter will show that Abraham sees and converses with Jehovah, who has come in the form of a man.

JW is pitting Scripture against Scripture, which is never a good way to study God’s word. He must reconcile the two, and the only way to do that is to let the Scriptures speak for themselves. Jehovah came to earth in human form.

Abraham did not see his “glory” as Moses asked to see in Exodus 33.

JW must read the context of Exodus 33:20 to understand what Jehovah meant by no one could see his face and live.

Exodus 33:18
Then Moses said, “Please show me Your glory.”

19“ I will cause all My goodness to pass before you,” the LORD replied, “and I will proclaim My name—the LORD—in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

20 But He added, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.”

21The LORD continued, “There is a place near Me where you are to stand upon a rock, 22 and when My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will take My hand away, and you will see My back; but My face must not be seen.”

[JehovahsWitness]

Both the account in Genesis 18-19 and Exodus 33:20 must be reconciled.

Which I have done using scriptural references as support (Exodus 3:4, 6 ; Exodus 3: 2, Hosea 12v4, Genesis 32:30 See posts --> #59 and --> #51 for full argumentation).

While you do so by saying ... "Abraham didn’t see the face of YHWH who lives in heaven. He saw the face of YHWH who visited ... " which is not only nonsensical, you present your "reconciliation" without a single scriptural support offered.


JW



Is seeing YHWH "in the flesh of a man", not seeing him?
viewtopic.php?p=1109903#p1109903

[MissKate13]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #55]

Did Jehovah appear to Abraham? YES!

Did Jehovah appear to Abraham in the form of a man? YES!

Was it an angel who appeared to Abraham! No!

I showed you how to reconcile Gen 18:1 with Ex 33:20 in post # 53. You reject it. As long as you refuse to acknowledge that YHWH appeared to Abraham in human form, you will never be able to reconcile the two passages. Too bad because Genesis 18 clearly presents YHWH as a man.

Case closed.

[JehovahsWitness]

If and when you choose to answer my questions, I’ll be happy to readdress your question about seeing God face to face.

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #55]

Did Jehovah appear to Abraham? YES!

Did Jehovah appear to Abraham in the form of a man? YES!

Was it an angel who appeared to Abraham! No! [...]

Case closed.

Well I you kept your word by readdressing the questions. The five words are much appreciated.



Be well,



JEHOVAHS WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

ANGELS, "SEEING" GOD and ...THE TRINITY DEBUNKED

[MissKate13]

he[Replying to MissKate13 in post #37]

Do you really believe that our all powerful Jehovah is incapable of coming to earth in the form of a human being? Do you think He can’t be in two places or more at one time?

Yes. I don't believe your Jehovah is all powerful. And he certainly can't incarnate as a man on Earth.

[MissKate13]

...
What I think you should do is read John 17:3 in its immediate and broader context of the Scriptures.. Cherry picking proves nothing.

In John 17:2, Jesus says that he has authority over all mankind. Who but GOD has ALL authority over man?

Jesus has authority, because God has given it to him.

Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.
Matt. 28:18

But when the multitudes saw it, they marveled and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
Matt. 9:8

When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor. 15:28

And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the cross. Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;
Phil. 2:8-9

Without God, Jesus would not have done anything.

I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don’t seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.
John 5:30

...
In Hebrews 1:8, the Father addresses the SON as GOD. In Hebrews 1:10, the Father addresses the Son as Lord.

Is the Father saying he is not God since he calls his Son God?

In John 13:13, Jesus refers to himself as Master and Lord.
...

Yes, Jesus is Lord. It does not mean he is the one and only true God also.

You call me, ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord.’ You say so correctly, for so I am.
John 13:13

And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.
Hebrews 1:10

Jesus and God can both be called Lord, for example because:

‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, Until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet?’
Matt. 22:44

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the ONE TRUE GOD. All are referred to as “theos.”

With God all things are possible. Why is it so hard for some to accept that YHWH could come to earth in the form of a man?

[MissKate13]

he[Replying to MissKate13 in post #37]

Do you really believe that our all powerful Jehovah is incapable of coming to earth in the form of a human being? Do you think He can’t be in two places or more at one time?

Yes. I don't believe your Jehovah is all powerful. And he certainly can't incarnate as a man on Earth.

Sad