Angels - what does scripture tell us about them?

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Angels - what does scripture tell us about them?

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

When I think of angels I wonder about this and that and often come up short.

I find them something of a challenge and a mystery.

Maybe some of you are somewhat nonplussed as well.

Anyway, this thread is for us to share what we can about angels.

Such as, what angels are, why they exist, what they do and why they do those things.

And anything else you know or want to know about them.

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Re: Angels - what does scripture tell us about them?

Post #2

Post by myth-one.com »

[Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

There is one difference between man and the angels.

Man was created a little lower than the angels:
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels. (Psalm 8:4-5)
Two trees in the Garden of Eden represented the differences between man and the angels; the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. When man sinned by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge, he drew closer to God and the angels in that he could distinguish good from evil.

Adam and Eve were then evicted from the garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and gaining the Godly characteristic of immortality:
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

So upon eviction from the Garden of Eden, there is at least one difference between man and the angels. That difference is immortality or eternal life. Man is mortal, while angels live forever.

============================================================================

Now let's jump forward to the New Testament.

The Word was made flesh as the man Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was made "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created! But we are given the one reason Jesus was made lower than the angels for His thirty-three years on earth. The Word could not die as a spirit!

He was made lower than the angels so that he could suffer death! That was the only change required for Him to become a human being! He had to change His body type:
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

If the Word had to make only one change to become a human, then there is one, and only one, remaining difference between humans and angels! That difference is a physical body versus a spiritual body. This one item separates God and the angels from man!

==========================================================================

When asked how men could enter into the Kingdom of God, Jesus confirmed that there is only one remaining requirement:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)
Jesus is addressing living men who have already been born of water. Human bodies are approximately 70% water and were carried in the womb in water.

If one chooses to accept Jesus as their Savior, their second birth after Jesus returns to the earth will be a spiritual birth into the Kingdom of God. It is a real event, not simply some emotion! You are born a second time as a spirit, or born again.

Therefore, the one remaining requirement for any human to enter the Kingdom of God is to be born again as a spirit!

That is, their body type must be changed from physical to spiritual.

========================================================================

The Word had to become physical to be a mortal man. He had to be born of water, His physical birth through Mary, to enter the kingdom of man.

Going the other direction, man must be born as a spiritual body to enter the Kingdom of God, as flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God:
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

Two body types are defined in the Bible, physical and spiritual, and each requires a separate and distinct birth:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)
Speaking of those who shall be born again into the Kingdom of God, Jesus states:
Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels... (Luke 20:36)
That is the one difference, body type.

Physical versus spiritual.

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Post #3

Post by brianbbs67 »

The English angel is an all inclusive term. Yet, no one seems to remember this. It comes from the Hebrew malak. Which only means messenger, so whether they are divine is determined by their actions. Were supernatural beings going to the churches in the NT? Maybe, the Epistles(letters) were given to messengers. Joseph wrestled an angel all night for his blessing. It was not till later, Joseph new he was divine. So, a messenger of God can be either or neither. Just ask Balaam.

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Re: Angels - what does scripture tell us about them?

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

QUESTION What are angels?


ANSWER Angels are intelligent spirit creatures unseen to humans . God is a spirit*, when He stared creating he first created other intelligent beings like himself , the first of which was his son, who came to be known as Jesus. Later they created many others, these we call "angels". High ranking angels having special duties are called cherubs. The highest ranking spirits, that directly serve Jehovah are called Seraphs. All these spirits, called int the bible book of Job "sons of God" ( Job 38:4-7) witnesses the creation of the physical universe, earth and the first humans.

* The bible identifies two types of intelligent beings those that are "physical" (have physical bodies) and those that are "spiritual" (have spiritual bodies). Everyone (even God himself) fits into one of these to "catagories".
JEHOVAH

JESUS


Seraphs

Cherub

Angels*
NOTE: Rebellious angels that have left God's family are called "demons", the foremost rebel is Satan the Devil. These rebellious angels evidently created physical bodies for themselves and fathered children with human women prior to the flood of Noahs day. They were condemned by God and will eventually be destroyed.


Angels are spirits that serve as messengers and have been used throughout the ages to help faithful humans and communicate Gods messages. The term "angel" is descriptive of the job or class/rank of a particular group of spirits, they are not different life forms to cherub or seraphs ( or Jesus and Jehovah).
To illustrate: humans can be catagorized as "male" or "female". So what is a teacher? Would someone described as a teacher mean they don't fit into either group? No, the title "teacher" (or mother, father, nurse, construction worker etc) are additional lables that are to do with the position or duties. In a similar way angels are spirits given particular tasks.
Humans are inferior to angels in intelligence and power.

ANGELS CAN MATERIALIZE

It seems angels can "materialize" sonthat they become visible to humans, and have done so on various missions on earth. When doing so, it seems they appeared like ordinary men (without wings) and were often mistaken for ordinary humans. Faithful Men and women once they understood whom they were addressing often addressed them as "Jehovah" recognising they represented God Himself. For more on this point see the post linked HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 432#937432



LEARN MORE..

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... Affect-Us/
Image





Are angels and spirits different "life forms"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p846578

Can any angel be considered Almighty God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p937439

Is there reason to believe angels/spirits are invisible to humans?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 95#p846495

How many angels does the bible say there are?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 04#p962504

What do the scriptures tell us about ANGELS?
viewtopic.php?p=965482#p965482

Does God have a heavenly organisation ?
viewtopic.php?p=1023112#p1023112
Go to other posts related to ....

ANGELS , DEMONS and ...THE HEAVENLY CALLING
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Angels - what does scripture tell us about them?

Post #5

Post by ttruscott »

myth-one.com wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

There is one difference between man and the angels.

Man was created a little lower than the angels:
Nope: Hebrews 2:7 You MADE them a little lower than the angels; brought low because they sinned before they were sown into the world as men, Matt 13:36-39.
MADE has nothing to do HIS acts of CREATION:
Strong's G1642. elattoó
Definition: to make less (in rank or influence)
Usage: I make less (inferior).

Every person created in his image was equal until they sinned...then sinners were "made less" than they used to be by being born as humans for the sinful elect to be redeemed.
Last edited by ttruscott on Tue May 28, 2019 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Angels - what does scripture tell us about them?

Post #6

Post by myth-one.com »


ttruscott wrote:
myth-one.com wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

There is one difference between man and the angels.

Man was created a little lower than the angels:
Nope: Hebrews 2:7 You MADE them a little lower than the angels; brought low because they sinned before they were sown into the world as men, Matt 13:36-39.
MADE has nothing to do HIS acts of CREATION:
Strong's G1642. elattoó
Definition: to make less (in rank or influence)
Usage: I make less (inferior).

Every person created in his image was equal until they sinned...then sinners were "made less" than they used to be by being born as humans for the sinful elect to be redeemed.
Man was never made equal to God or the angels.

Man was never created immortal!

Immortality is something which can never be "made less."

Once granted, it is eternal.

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Re: Angels - what does scripture tell us about them?

Post #7

Post by ttruscott »

myth-one.com wrote:
ttruscott wrote:
myth-one.com wrote: There is one difference between man and the angels.
Man was created a little lower than the angels:


Nope: Hebrews 2:7 You MADE them a little lower than the angels; brought low because they sinned before they were sown into the world as men, Matt 13:36-39.
MADE has nothing to do HIS acts of CREATION:
Strong's G1642. elattoó
Definition: to make less (in rank or influence)
Usage: I make less (inferior).

Every person created in his image was equal until they sinned...then sinners were "made less" than they used to be by being born as humans for the sinful elect to be redeemed.
Man was never made equal to God or the angels.
What I said.
myth-one.com wrote:Man was never created immortal!
I tend to agree but it is a non-sequitur here.
myth-one.com wrote:Immortality is something which can never be "made less." Once granted, it is eternal.
Why the focus upon immortality here? It is not in the verses referenced...
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Angels - what does scripture tell us about them?

Post #8

Post by ttruscott »

JehovahsWitness wrote: QUESTION What are angels?
I agree this is the cux as they say...

ANGELS HAVE FREE WILL:

Angels worship GOD:
Hebrews 1:6 points out that angels worship the Lord. We also see the heavenly host praising God in Luke 2:13–14. Robotic praise and worship is a parody of the real thing and worthless in heaven.When you put on a dvd and listen to a worship song singing praises to GOD, do you think or allude to the dvd as worshipping? Of course you don't.

Some angels are elect:
1 Timothy 5:21 - I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels. implying the fallen angels are demons and the people of the evil one, the tares, sown into the world by the devil. IF angels can choose to sin and become demons, they can also choose to be holy and work for GOD.

Angels are holy:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels. This verse contrasts the of sinfulness men with the holiness, that is, the righteousness of angels, not just their consecration to GOD. Robotic holiness is a farce...a stone cannot sin but it is not righteous and a robot neither can be holy, that is, in the context of this verse, righteous. As well, Satan's fall is proof of his free will as he is not guilty of anything if he is a robot...

Angels have emotions such as love, joy, desire, sadness, pride, and anger:
Luke 15:10 indicates that angels are joyous when one person repents. The devil has great wrath in Revelation 12:12. The angels and the devil have desires (1 Peter 1:12; John 8:44). Why would anyone create a robotic group with emotions to drive them when HIS will is all that is necessary to drive them? Robotic emotions??? Surely only people have emotions...

Angels are Persons in the image of GOD:
In the resurrection, man will be as the angels of God.
Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. In the resurrection, man is restored to the image of God in which he was created. The angels of God must, therefore, bear the image of God.

The image of GOD cannot contain sin therefore for man to be a sinner, the image must be broken. In the resurrection we will be restored to the full image of GOD and like the angels as this verse hints, who therefore must also be in HIS image.

When did they receive the image of God unless it was in creation?

The image of GOD? I think it means things like personhood that is, self awareness, intelligence, emotional ability, curiosity and creativity and the ability to make true free will decisions. Therefore any being that fits this description fits the image of GOD...

Not only does the ability to worship, to praise, to be elect and to be holy imply personhood, they also imply they have free will and if you combine free will with election of some and the fall of others, you get angels going through an Adam like choice with some staying holy and satan and his crew choosing that which made them evil in HIS sight.

Emotions are further proof of their personhood in the image of GOD.

My concept is that Adam was created in the image of GOD but, as a true innocent, only had the potential for perfection, ie, we had to choose to accept GOD and HIS life for us in heaven to fulfill our potential to be perfect. Our fall into sin delayed the fulfillment of that potential by making it impossible to fulfill without grace. Our redemption is a restoration to the potential and the new creation is the fully realized fulfillment of HIS purpose for our creation in us.

Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Angels - what does scripture tell us about them?

Post #9

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 2 by myth-one.com]
There is one difference between man and the angels.

Man was created a little lower than the angels:

Quote:
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels. (Psalm 8:4-5)

Two trees in the Garden of Eden represented the differences between man and the angels; the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. When man sinned by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge, he drew closer to God and the angels in that he could distinguish good from evil.[

Going the other direction, man must be born as a spiritual body to enter the Kingdom of God, as flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God./quote]

Thanks for posting.

This thread is not intended to be about man and his story, but about angels.

Please keep it that way.
this thread is for us to share what we can about angels.

Such as, what angels are, why they exist, what they do and why they do those things.

And anything else you know or want to know about them.
Thanks.

Grace and peace.

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Re: Angels - what does scripture tell us about them?

Post #10

Post by LuciusWrong »

Checkpoint wrote: When I think of angels I wonder about this and that and often come up short.

I find them something of a challenge and a mystery.

Maybe some of you are somewhat nonplussed as well.

Anyway, this thread is for us to share what we can about angels.

Such as, what angels are, why they exist, what they do and why they do those things.

And anything else you know or want to know about them.

I think if we are to be perfectly accurate in our understanding of everything the Bible says, I believe that we must conclude that it is us, the humans, who are the "spiritual" beings. Our world is the "spiritual" realm, since in the opinion of God and the heavenly hosts, we are the ones who exist apart from them. They live in the "true" reality, and our reality, our plane of existence...is separate from them...and it is temporary, if we take into consideration our belief that they are eternal, while we are mortal.

About the creatures themselves, we get a glimpse in the Bible. In Revelation we find a description of creatures that are extremely strange according to what we expect. The one that comes to mind is the one covered with eyes, all over it's body. And there are a few others, which are all quite different from each other, which implies to me that there is a vast diversity of these heavenly beings.

And when Jesus is confronting demons, again it seems that there is a variety of demons. I think we can safely infer there is a complex heirarchy, with some clever and powerful, and some who are small, less significant, less powerful, and less clever...such as the legion of demons who Jesus cast out...who asked to go into the herd of pigs.

And the whole thing where God and Jesus both refer to having a kingdom...I am convinced that there is an entire society of these heavenly creatures living together, and that the number of them and the diversity of these creatures is beyond our comprehension.

And this is the kingdom that God and Jesus are concerned with. The lie, Satan's lie, has torn heaven apart, and God is seeking to repair the damage and bring the kingdom back together. And needless to say it is a delicate situation. And it is this delicate situation that lead to the creation of us... Through this world God demonstrates to all of heaven why he is right and why Satan is wrong; only then can God judge the traitors without additional harm to his kingdom.



I do attempt to infer the story of heaven; I'm reading between the lines.

Standard theology asserts that God created the angels, heaven, space, time, etc. This theory is based on 1 verse...it says, "God created everything, visible and invisible". And just for context, standard theology asserts quite a lot as incontrovertable fact, but the basis of most of it is quite weak, as it is in this case, relying on 1 verse.

I think the real reason that theologians believe God created the angels, and that nothing existed before God created, is becaue they pre-supppose that everything began when the Bible says, "In the beginning..." They believe that nothing happened before this; nothing apart from God himself existed before this moment. So therefore it is impossible for there to be any kind back story to the Bible.

However, if everything started at the moment God created the world, then all of the skeptics are correct in their objections. It is just a bad story. All the objections voiced by skeptics are valid, and completely unresolved by even the best apologist.

The accusation that if God created everything, then God created evil, is of principle concern. We believe God did not create evil, but we are trapped by our theology....we are forced to say that God created everything, and God has perfect knowledge of how it would all turn out...yet somehow God isn't actually responsible for evil. We forget that if God is as powerful as we say he is, he could have created a world where evil is never introduced...and we overlook the fact that God allowed Satan to be in the Garden... There isn't even the suggestion in the Bible that Satan did not have permission to be in the garden...

Anyway, the easiest way to resolve the problem of the origin of evil is to say that God did not create Satan. And if God did not create Satan, in all likelihood God did not create any of the spiritual beings.

Furthermore, why do we say that God is the most powerful? What if God isn't the most powerful? God doesn't actually claim to be the most powerful in heaven. What God does is he claims to "declare the end from the beginning", and God claims wisdom and knowledge; God claims truth, the knowledge of good and evil. It may be that he is the most powerful, but he doesn't rule by force. That isn't who he is.

We infer that God has broad, magical abilities. God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, etc. The basis for these qualities is not terribly solid; I think theologians are guilty of "The Philosophical Fallacy". I mean this generally, and not specifically to this topic. The Philosophical Fallacy is essentially to infer an ideal from a specific case, and to apply the ideal universally...which creates contradictions, and then additional principles are invented to resolve those contradictions, even though those contradictions are not real of themselves, but a product of the first mal-formed ideal. It's what happens when you start out on the wrong foot and refuse to go back and start over. It is a human super-power.

(I don't necessarily say that God doesn't have these "powers", but I question the over-simplistic rendering of God's abilities. These ideas are man's creation, and Omniscience, while I can formulate an argument for why it is correct [i'] within our physical reality[/i], I do not think we can say that God has the same "mastery" over the spiritual realm. Maybe he does, but I don't see a basis from which to even begin investigating the question.)


So yeah, not to write a manifesto or something...but I say that heavenly beings are incomprehensibly diverse, numerous beyond our imagination, and they live in a reality that is a complete system like ours. God is one of these heavenly beings. These beings are all intelligent, autonomous. They are essentially like us, or rather, we are like them.

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