Do you believe that all scripture really "God breathed&

[polonius]

2 Timothy 3:16-17New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.

If scripture is indeed authored by God, does God make occasional errors?

A Biblical fundamentalist will frequently try to prove what they want someone to believe by quoting (at least their interpretation) of a scripture passage, and hence not consider the fact that that scripture itself may be in error.

But don't scriptural contradictions prove that not all scripture is divinely inspired (or God-breathed)?:?

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

No man hath seen God at any time. —John 1:18

For I have seen God face to face. —Genesis 32:30


Then of course there's the undeniable differences between Jesus' genealogies in Luke and Matthew

[JehovahsWitness]

Did Jesus ride one one animal of two animals? That is the issue, and that is the contradiction.

Obviously he sat on one animal (although evidently, there were two taken/present).

I have explained this in my earlier commentary, perhaps you missed it.


Did Jesus attempt to sit (spead eagle) across two donkeys, riding them both at the same time?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 297#837297

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[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 11 by Justin108]

"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)

Genesis 32:30 :
"Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, have seen God face-to-face, yet my life was preserved.

QUESTION: Does Genesis 32:30 contradict John 1:18?

No, angels are sometimes spoken of as "being" Jehovah in the sense that they are acting for and speaking on behalf of Him, being visible representatives of that one. Note these parallel verses speaking of Moses' encounter at the burning bush:

Exodus 3:4, 6 : God called unto him out of the midst of the bush...
Exodus 3: 2 the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush.

Evidently the account here refers to the angel as God. Further support for this view is found at Hosea 12v4 which reads : He [Jacob] kept contending with an angel and prevailed. He wept and begged for his favor.

This is not unusual even in English. To illustrate: One might read in a newspaper that "President Trump says he'lll sit down with Putin for peace talks" when in fact the actual offer was worded to Putin via the Secretary of State or some other high official. In a similar way Jacob said he "saw God" not literally but saw a physical manifestation of God through an encounter with his (God's) representative.

The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges puts it : "The face of God was to be seen in the Angel: he that looked on the Angel saw the Presence of Jehovah."

CONCLUSION: Far from being a "contradiction" the scriptures sometimes speak of people addressing God's angelic representatives as "Jehovah' or "God" in recognition of who they speak and act for.








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[JehovahsWitness]

Then of course there's the undeniable differences between Jesus' genealogies in Luke and Matthew

I have already posted the response to this, did you miss it?

Why are there apparent discrepencies in the geneology of Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 376#832376


Further Reading: Why do Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts about Jesus’ early life differ?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... ogy-jesus/

[Justin108]

QUESTION: Does Genesis 32:30 contradict John 1:18?

No, angels are sometimes spoken of as "being" Jehovah in the sense that they are acting for and speaking on behalf of Him, being visible representatives of that one.

This is a ridiculous excuse. No one ever speaks like this. No one would say they saw the King when in fact all they saw was an employee of the King. They would most certainly not claim to have seen the king "face to face". So why would anyone speak this way regarding God? If Jacob did not see God face-to-face, then he is lying. If Jacob merely saw an angel, then his claim that he saw God face-to-face is a blatantly false claim. If I met a British ambassador, I would be lying if I said I saw the Queen face-to-face. It's that simple. Either Jacob saw God face-to-face, or he is lying.

In a similar way Jacob said he "saw God" not literally but saw a physical manifestation of God through an encounter with his (God's) representative.

I would meet you half way, except for the part where he claims to have seen God "face-to-face". Using your Trump example; if someone said "Putin spoke to Trump face-to-face" it would be blatantly false if in reality, Putin merely spoke to the the Secretary of State.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 14 by JehovahsWitness]

Luke traced the line through David’s son Nathan and evidently follows the ancestry of Mary*

This is simply not true...

Luke 3:23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi...

"Joseph, the son of Heli"... not "Mary, the daughter of Heli". This is not Mary's genealogy.

[McCulloch]

Luke traced the line through David’s son Nathan and evidently follows the ancestry of Mary*

This is simply not true...

Luke 3:23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi...

"Joseph, the son of Heli"... not "Mary, the daughter of Heli". This is not Mary's genealogy.

I find it odd that biblical apologists have to resort to saying that a biblical writer meant something other than what he wrote, in order to support the idea that the Bible is inerrant. Luke said that Joseph was the son of Heli, not the son-in-law of Heli. There are six in-law relationships explicit in the New Testament. But in the one incident, they would have us believe, Luke meant son-in-law when he actually wrote son.

You cannot have it both ways. Either Luke was in error about the name of Joseph's father or Luke was in error in his choice of words used to describe the relationship between Joseph and Heli.

Addendum. Or Matthew was wrong.

[JehovahsWitness]

I would meet you half way, except for the part where he claims to have seen God "face-to-face"

QUESTION: What does the expression "face-to-face" mean in scripture?

The expression "face to face" ( lit. "faces to faces,") is an idiomatic expression that refers to intimate two way conversation and does not necessarily mean the parties literally saw each other's faces.

Face, both in English and in Hebrew is an extremely versatile word which, while it of course can refer to the front of someone's head is very often used idiomatically for example "face of the earth", "to fall on your face", "to face an issue", "a bare faced lie"... etc). The Hebrew word for "face" (paniym) conveys the idea of being "in the presence of" and it finds itself translated in a variety of English expressions such as ...

- presence, person
- before and behind, toward, in front of,
- forward, formerly, from beforetime, before

Even in English the we use the term "face-to-face" can mean in the presence or in contact with someone and one does not necessarily need to be seen or literally see the person for this.

click on picture to enlarge


Thus in the bible, when Moses - and subsequently all Israel- were "face-to-face" with YHWH, this means that they were effectively in each other's "presence" and not that both parties literally saw each other's faces (Deut 5:4).





JW


Further Reading: Insight on the Scriptures Vol I p. 801
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001482#h=8

"Mere" Metaphor (scroll down)
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... 3-lxx.html

[polonius]

Did Jesus ride one or two animals? That is the issue, and that is the contradiction.

Obviously he sat on one animal (although evidently, there were two taken/present).

I have explained this in my earlier commentary, perhaps you missed it.

RESPONSE:

Lucky me!

Let's get back to the case in point. Did Jesus send for and ride two animals (Matthew) or did he send for and ride one animal (Mark, Luke, and John)?

One versus two - a contradiction!

[polonius]

If the bible is historically correct, then Moses was physically present at the Transfiguration (if the Transfiguration actually occurred).

Having died and been buried even before the Jews entered the promised land, Moses, therefore, had to have been resurrected (even before Jesus).

Do you think this actually occurred or is the story tust fiction?