God kills 70000 Israelites!!!

[alexxcJRO]

According to the perfect inerrant word of God(Bible) the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Yahweh kills 70,000 Israelites including countless of innocent(of any wrong-doing, sin) small children, infants for the sin of one man(David) after he or Satan incites him to sin:

2 Samuel 24

David Enrolls the Fighting Men
24 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.
3 But Joab replied to the king, May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?
4 The kings word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beershebain the Negev of Judah.
8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.
11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, Davids seer: 12 Go and tell David, This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.
13 So Gad went to David and said to him, Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.
14 David said to Gad, I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.
15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, Enough! Withdraw your hand. The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the LORD, I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.

Observation: The account in 1 Chronicles is different then the account in 2 Samuel. (So much for the perfect, inerrant word of God)

Someone would wonder what abominable sin David committed that angered God so much to make him act in such horrendous way: killing tens of thousands of men, woman and children.

Hold on your straps people, here it comes: He did a census!!!

Imagine that. The poor guy did a census and Yahweh in his perfect wisdom, justice, benevolence decided that the punishment suited for this was not to punish in some way the person guilty of the wrong-doing, sin but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin.

David even asks a very wise question to God. Why punish others when he was the one guilty:

I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done?

Off course the perfect God of the Bible does not answer the question. How would he?!!!

Q: How can anyone be so oblivious to such a huge discrepancy, contradiction between the supposed attributes of God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, perfect wisdom, justice, mercy) and the actions of this being portrait in the Bible?

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

Q: How can anyone in their right mind, with their rational faculties intact defend such actions and not smell the foul stench of nonsense rotting their brain?

[ttruscott]

Q: So you are saying he inflicted countless suffering and death to countless infants(Israelites), non-moral agents because they were not on the list of humans whom God shows benevolence?

The biblical inference is that the foetus in the womb and infants are indeed moral agents. What is your proof they are not? Their big eyes and soft mewlings?

Q: How does one human get on the list? Is it random?

Everyone is created on the list. Some got off by their free will decision to reject YHWH as a false god and a liar and therefore the first, ie, the most, evil person in reality.

Q: What if you are not on the list? (imagine the irony)

What irony? A person only gets off the list by first choosing to hate GOD - is it unreasonable that they then face the consequences of their choice?

Q: How can one worship a malevolent being?

Malevolent - having or showing a wish to do evil to others. When GOD as the proper and righteous Judge brings condemnation upon those who have chosen the route of becoming psychopathic in their crimes, how is that malevolence?

We get all we know about YHWH from the Bible and it is written: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. HE doesn't seem to be very good at malevolence, does HE.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? What does give HIM pleasure? 1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Only by solidly rejecting the righteousness of condemning a criminal to suffering does all suffering become only malevolent. And the ones who cry foul the loudest are the condemned.

[Willum]

You know it occurs to me, we could look at the Jews as they claim - as the chosen people.
Or we could look at the situation pragmatically, and say, God has not treated them very well at all. Perhaps chosen is a misnomer, or we should ask, "chosen for what exactly?"

There are certainly many many people in history God has treated better, you know, not killing 70,000 of them, and so on, and many many many people God has treated worse, like being wiped off the Earth completely - which is actually true of more sects of Judaism than it is not.

Is this worth discussing? or will I find myself accused of anti-semitism?

[alexxcJRO]

You made up 'the list'.

The bible talks about The Book of Life and we are its creators
where everything we think or do does not disappear but is recorded.

As it is in the spiritual dimension and in its light, everything in it will be seen in that light.
That is our judgment.

Firstly,

As usual you are posting irrelevant things.

Bluethread was saying God is not benevolent towards all humans, he is not all loving.

This implies some humans will not benefit from God benevolence no matter what they do, no matter if they are righteus or not, non-moral agents or not.

I asked how does God choose whom will he show benevolence? Is it random?

A random capricious, hostile, non-benevolent behaviour towards some humans can only be the behaviour of a malevolent being.




Secondly,

The countless infants whom God inflicted countless suffering and death must have deserved it.

These non-moral agents's book of life must have been filled with all kinds of immoral things.

Wait a minute? There is something seriously wrong with the previous phrase.

The 10th time.

You don't have any judgment when you are talking about non-moral agents.

Moral agency is an individual's ability to make moral judgments based on some notion of right and wrong and to be held accountable for these actions. A moral agent is "a being who is capable of acting with reference to right and wrong."

Its illogical(either for humans and gods) to punish non-moral agents(infants, mentally impaired people, animals) for they do not have the rational faculties to understand concepts like right, wrong, law.

[alexxcJRO]

So you are saying God is not omnibenevolent; meaning not benevolent towards all humans. Therefore malevolent.
So you are saying God is no all loving; meaning does no love all humans. Therefore malevolent.

False logic.

To not love someone is not to be hostile or malevolent to them if one is merely indifferent.

Q: Wait what?

Don't me laugh. ))

Q:What indifference are you talking about?

God of the bible is nothing but indifferent.
His hostile actions are all throughout the bible.

[alexxcJRO]

The biblical inference is that the foetus in the womb and infants are indeed moral agents. What is your proof they are not? Their big eyes and soft mewlings?

The lack of compassion in that phrase is sinister indeed.

The 11th time.

Moral agency is an individual's ability to make moral judgments based on some notion of right and wrong and to be held accountable for these actions. A moral agent is "a being who is capable of acting with reference to right and wrong.

Its illogical(either for humans and gods) to punish non-moral agents(infants, mentally impaired people, animals) for they do not have the rational faculties to understand concepts like right, wrong, law.

Everyone is created on the list. Some got off by their free will decision to reject YHWH as a false god and a liar and therefore the first, ie, the most, evil person in reality.

What irony? A person only gets off the list by first choosing to hate GOD - is it unreasonable that they then face the consequences of their choice?

Forgot about this:

"At least one small child or infant or mentally impaired among the 70000 chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life(one of the elect).

Therefore God killed at least one non-moral agent who is a sheep(chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life). "

Posted twice. You failed to reply twice.

Malevolent - having or showing a wish to do evil to others. When GOD as the proper and righteous Judge brings condemnation upon those who have chosen the route of becoming psychopathic in their crimes, how is that malevolence?

We get all we know about YHWH from the Bible and it is written: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. HE doesn't seem to be very good at malevolence, does HE.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? What does give HIM pleasure? 1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Only by solidly rejecting the righteousness of condemning a criminal to suffering does all suffering become only malevolent. And the ones who cry foul the loudest are the condemned.

Actions speak louder then works.

At least one small child or infant or mentally impaired among the 70000 chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life(one of the elect).

Therefore God has inflicted suffering and death to at least one small child or infant or mentally impaired -->non-moral agent who is a sheep(chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life).

Therefore God has inflicted suffering and death to at least one human who was not wicked.

Therefore God is malevolent.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 74 by alexxcJRO]

I would agree, the God of the bible does display hostility. He does this toward the wicked, the oppressive and those that would abuse others. Indeed the God of the bible vows to one day kill off all such incorrigibly wicked people in what the bible calls HARMAGEDDON.

I believe its best to stay on His good side, the biblical evidence indicates things don't bode well for those God (YHWH) hates.


JW

[ttruscott]

Moral agency is an individual's ability to make moral judgments based on some notion of right and wrong and to be held accountable for these actions. A moral agent is "a being who is capable of acting with reference to right and wrong."

Therefore sinners do not have moral agency - they only have selfish needs that sometimes masquerade as doing good.

All people created in GOD's image, humans included, were created as innocent moral agents with a free will. Before they became either righteous or evil by their free will decision, they were innocent. Once they chose to be evil by their free will, they lost their ability to choose good to repair their lost innocence and lost free will.

All such sinners are born into the world as humans, the sinful elect by The Son of Man and the people of the evil one by the devil, Matt 13:36-39. Not only can they not reverse their enslaving addiction to evil but they slowly lose their capacity to choose for good, that is their little sin / leaven soon corrupts / leavens the whole lump of their character as they protect their love for sin from the effect of the truth as per Rom 1.

In other words, sinners do not act in reference to right and wrong but only to their addictive desires and that is why no sinner can be saved by good works for all their works derive from sinful impulses.

IOW, no sinners are moral agents as per your definition since they are addicts ruled by their addiction. Christian doctrine is clear that all are sinners from conception so by your definition, there are no moral agents on earth...although I would accept that the redeemed elect, after they have regained their free will by rebirth and have been trained in righteousness by painful discipline, Heb 12:5-11, are then moral agents.

[ttruscott]

Forgot about this:

"At least one small child or infant or mentally impaired among the 70000 chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life(one of the elect).

Therefore God killed at least one non-moral agent who is a sheep(chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life). "

Posted twice. You failed to reply twice.

Ahhh, yes; your expertise at accelerating the game of Explain A Plot Badly*/wrongly/ outrageously to a depth beyond all recognition is usually ignored as it seldom gives me any real doctrine to defend which is the purpose of apologetics.

*https://twitter.com/hashtag/explainafil ... ly?lang=en

I am not sorry to have missed this but now that I have noticed it I think I have some reply...

Even though you do not prove your assertion that there was at least one ELECT infant or foetus or mentally impaired in the 70,000, may I remind you that

I contend that there are graduations of commitment to sin in the elect. I don't know if you will follow this but I hope someone might but I think that when the Satanic rebellion occurred, since GOD cannot abide evil, Habakkuk 1:13, the very next thing HE did was to ask all the elect (those who did not rebel against HIM with Satan) to come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing, that is, to repudiate all their feelings of love and friendship with those condemned already.

I think at that moment some elect (those who rejected the Satanic rebellion to accept YHWH as their GOD) out of love, friendship for a person who had rebelled, rebelled against the call, knowing YHWH would call them evil, and thus, because of HIS promise to save them and not condemn them, force the postponement the judgment day until they were brought to holiness.

But what I do not usually talk about since no one is interested, is that I think HE then called all the friends of these sinful elect to come away from them but some did not trust HIS mercy with their loved ones and so sided with them in their sin, refusing to obey and followed them into sin. Those who see an reference to Adam and Eve here may be assured it is on purpose. As per their story I also think that they did not count their rebellion to the call for judgement as a sin since it was an expression of love and caring so they were not ashamed.

Then again the call for purity was made and again some chose their friends over HIM. This continued until the last person to make the decison to side with their sinful friends against GOD was finished.

This supposes that the strength of the first to rebel against the judgement were more committed to rebellion than the last whose commitment to rebellion was much to very weaker. Thus among the sinful elect we have a graduation of commitment to evil which is involved with their earthly experiences.

I contend that some of these elect people need barely any experience of being human to repent of their sins and put themselves at HIS mercy. I am firmly committed to the idea that GOD's predetermination of our lives refers to our lives being perfectly controlled to get every elect to repentance and righteous holiness.

Thus an elect foetus dying in the womb has had enough life to fulfill the dictum the wages of sin is death and was brought to repentance in the womb. THUS, the age of the person dying in my theology gives no indication in the least whether that foetus, infant or mentally insufficient person is saved or damned because no good work nor any intellectual understanding has any thing to do with salvation at all BUT only whether we are elect by our faith in Christ The Son as our saviour and therefore are under HIS promise of salvation from any and all sin.

It might well be that before He called for the judgement of the 70,000, HE arranged for only elect sinners that needed only a quick death to fulfill the curse on sin to be in place as the infants and mentally deficient children within that group... Or not.

[alexxcJRO]

Forgot about this:

"At least one small child or infant or mentally impaired among the 70000 chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life(one of the elect).

Therefore God killed at least one non-moral agent who is a sheep(chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life). "

Posted twice. You failed to reply twice.

Ahhh, yes; your expertise at accelerating the game of Explain A Plot Badly*/wrongly/ outrageously to a depth beyond all recognition is usually ignored as it seldom gives me any real doctrine to defend which is the purpose of apologetics.

*https://twitter.com/hashtag/explainafil ... ly?lang=en

I am not sorry to have missed this but now that I have noticed it I think I have some reply...

Even though you do not prove your assertion that there was at least one ELECT infant or foetus or mentally impaired in the 70,000, may I remind you that

I contend that there are graduations of commitment to sin in the elect. I don't know if you will follow this but I hope someone might but I think that when the Satanic rebellion occurred, since GOD cannot abide evil, Habakkuk 1:13, the very next thing HE did was to ask all the elect (those who did not rebel against HIM with Satan) to come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing, that is, to repudiate all their feelings of love and friendship with those condemned already.

I think at that moment some elect (those who rejected the Satanic rebellion to accept YHWH as their GOD) out of love, friendship for a person who had rebelled, rebelled against the call, knowing YHWH would call them evil, and thus, because of HIS promise to save them and not condemn them, force the postponement the judgment day until they were brought to holiness.

But what I do not usually talk about since no one is interested, is that I think HE then called all the friends of these sinful elect to come away from them but some did not trust HIS mercy with their loved ones and so sided with them in their sin, refusing to obey and followed them into sin. Those who see an reference to Adam and Eve here may be assured it is on purpose. As per their story I also think that they did not count their rebellion to the call for judgement as a sin since it was an expression of love and caring so they were not ashamed.

Then again the call for purity was made and again some chose their friends over HIM. This continued until the last person to make the decison to side with their sinful friends against GOD was finished.

This supposes that the strength of the first to rebel against the judgement were more committed to rebellion than the last whose commitment to rebellion was much to very weaker. Thus among the sinful elect we have a graduation of commitment to evil which is involved with their earthly experiences.

I contend that some of these elect people need barely any experience of being human to repent of their sins and put themselves at HIS mercy. I am firmly committed to the idea that GOD's predetermination of our lives refers to our lives being perfectly controlled to get every elect to repentance and righteous holiness.

Thus an elect foetus dying in the womb has had enough life to fulfill the dictum the wages of sin is death and was brought to repentance in the womb. THUS, the age of the person dying in my theology gives no indication in the least whether that foetus, infant or mentally insufficient person is saved or damned because no good work nor any intellectual understanding has any thing to do with salvation at all BUT only whether we are elect by our faith in Christ The Son as our saviour and therefore are under HIS promise of salvation from any and all sin.

It might well be that before He called for the judgement of the 70,000, HE arranged for only elect sinners that needed only a quick death to fulfill the curse on sin to be in place as the infants and mentally deficient children within that group... Or not.

So your real objection is that there was no sheep-elect(chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life) among the 70, 000.
Really?:-s

What about the Noah's flood where we have 20, 000, 000 people drowned by God. No elect there?
What about the thounsand of people that died in the Sodom and Gomorah burned to death by fire and a rain of burning sulphur cuz of God. No elect there?
What about the Egyptian that were killed in the 10 plagues cuz of God. No elect there?
What about the 14, 700 from Numbers 16:49 that died of plague cuz of God. No elect there?
What about the 24, 000 Israelites from Numbers 25:9 that died pf plague cuz of God. No elect there?
What about the 185, 000 soldiers that were killed by an angel(therefore by God). No elect there?

Let's see we have 20, 000, 000 + 3, 000 + 200, 000 + 14, 700 + 24, 000 + 185, 000 = 20, 426, 700
or if you go to the link below the estimate is 24, 994, 828.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ro/ ... bible.html

Therefore is safely to assume that we have at least one sheep-elect(chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life) whom God inflicted suffering, pain and death.

Therefore your theology is debunked. Sayonara dear sir.

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to post 74 by alexxcJRO]

I would agree, the God of the bible does display hostility. He does this toward the wicked, the oppressive and those that would abuse others. Indeed the God of the bible vows to one day kill off all such incorrigibly wicked people in what the bible calls HARMAGEDDON.

I believe its best to stay on His good side, the biblical evidence indicates things don't bode well for those God (YHWH) hates.


JW

In the Noah's flood we have 20, 000, 000 people(people including infants, small children, mentally impaired people, animals ) drowned by God.

In the Sodom and Gomorah story we have few thousand people(including infants, small children, mentally impaired people, animals) that burned to death by fire and a rain of burning sulphur cuz of God.

In the plagues of Egypt story we several hundreds thousand people(including infants, small children, mentally impaired people, animals) that died of different plagues cuz of God.

In Numbers 16:49 we have 14, 700(including infants, small children, mentally impaired people, animals) from that died of plague cuz of God.

In Numbers 25:9 we have 24, 000(including infants, small children, mentally impaired people, animals) Israelites that died pf plague cuz of God.

Plus let's not forgot about the genocide against the Canaanites.

Therefore is safely to assume that we have countless infants, mentally inpaired people, animals-->non-moral agents whom God inflicted suffering, pain and death via different punishments.

Therefore God of the Bible is either a moron or weak or a malevolent being; surely not an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent-perfectly good being.