The Problem with the Problem of Evil

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williamryan
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The Problem with the Problem of Evil

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Post by williamryan »

I'm new to this site. I've surfed around a bit on this topic, and I've constantly run into incantations of the problem of evil. I've seen Juliod, among others, use it over and over. I hope this thread will isolate the real issues of contention and shed some light on this often misused and abused argument. I have learned much from William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga's writings on this matter, and much of what I say is from their writings.

There are two basic versions of the problem of evil: deductive and probalistic (aka inductive). The propontent of the deductive problem of evil attempts to show that the existence of Deductive looks like this:

1. If a God exists who is omnipotent (all powerful) and omnibenevolent (all loving),
2. and evil exists,
3. then God cannot be omnipotent or omnibenevolent.

This version of the argument has been almost completely abandoned by professional philosophers today. It lives on in its popular level form and is made immortal by producing this corpse of an argument between non-philosopher friends. Alvin Plantinga (a preeminent Christian philosopher at Notre Dame and past president of the Amer. Philosophical Assoc., which is the main association of professional philosophers) showed that this version of the problem of evil is logically untenable.

Alvin Plantinga presented a "defense" as opposed to a theodicy. A theodicy is an effort to explain why God would allow evil to exist. A defense, however, merely seeks to show that the atheist has failed to carry their case that evil is incompatible with God's existence. In other words, a sucessful defense with show that the atheist has failed to show that evil is logically incompatible with God's existence, while leaving us in the dark as to why God allows evil.

The deductive argument was destroyed because, in short, the atheist has assumed an overwhelming burden. Premises (1) and (2), above, are at not explicitly, logically inconsistent. An explicit, logically inconsistent statement would be that "God is blue, but God is not blue."

If the atheist thinks that premises (1) and (2) are implicitly inconsistent, then he or she must be assuming some hidden premise(s) that would make the inconsistency explicit. Those premises seem to be these:

(3) If God is omnipotent, then God can create any world that God desires.
(4) If God is omnibenevolent, then God prefers a world without evil over a world with evil.

Hidden premise (3) then is the view that if God is omnipotent, he could create a world that were all humans freely choose to do the right thing. This world would then be free of all moral evil: no lying, no cheating, no murder etc. So, because we can conceive of a world in which everyone freely chooses every time to do the right thing, and God is all-powerful, then God must be able to create it.

This links with hidden premise (4) because if God was powerful enough to create this type of world, then he certaintly would because he is all-loving. In other words, if God had the choice between creating a flawed, evil world like this one and creating one w/o any evil, then God would most certainly chose the latter. Otherwise, God would be evil to prefer that people experience pain and suffering when God could have given them happiness and prosperity.

In David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, he summarized this last point when he asked: "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?"

Plantinga and others object to hidden premise (3) with what he calls the free will defense. It goes like this: if it is possible that humans have complete freedom to make choices, then (3) and (4) are not necessarily true. If humans have freedom to make choices, then it is not necessarily true that God could have created another world in which no evil exists but people have complete freedom of choice. This is because God's omnipotence doesn't imply that God can do logical impossibilities like create a round triangle or make a married bachelor, or make someone freely chose to do something.

All God can really do is create a world in which a person may freely chose to act and then allow that person to make the free choice. This implies that there are possible worlds that are not feasible for God to create. Just like its not "feasible" for God to create a round triangle or a married bachelor. This does not impinge on God's omnipotence though, because God cannot be impinged for not being able to do a logical impossibility. Another example how how non-sensical this is, is for someone to say that God is not all-powerful because he cannot exist and non exist at the same time.

So, suppose that in every feasible world that God could create, free creatures sometimes choice evil. Here it is us, the creature, not God that is responsible for evil and God can do nothing to prevent their ability to choose the evil, apart from refusing to create such a world at all. Therefore it is at least possible that feasible world that God could create that contains free human beings is a world that has evil in it.

I'm about to say something that will seem crazy and you might be tempted to label be a total fundamentalist and crazy, but please keep reading past the next few sentences. As for natural evils (i.e. earthquakes, tornadoes, etc.) it is possible that these evils could result from demonic activity. Demons could have freedom just like humans and it is possible that God could not preclude natural evil w/o removing demons' free will. You might be thinking, "That is ridiculous!" and you might even think that it is a spurious, frivolous argument. But only let this thought last a few moments lest you confuse the deductive argument with the probabilistic arguments. I admit, ascribing all evil to demonic beings is improbable, but that is completely irrevelant to the deductive version of this argument. Probability only enters the calculus in the probalistic argument. All I must do here is show that such an explanation (both for the moral evil and natural evil) is merely possible.

In summary, hidden premise (3), that an omnipotent God can create any world he desires, is plainly not necessarily true. Therefore, the atheist's argument on this ground alone fails, which causes the whole argument to fail. But we can go further, what about hidden premise (4).

What about (4), the hidden premise that if God is all-loving then he would prefer a world w/o evil over a world with evil. Again, this is not necessarily true. By analogy, we allow pain and suffering to exist in a person's life to bring about some greater good. Every parent knows this. There comes a time when parents cannot protect their child from every mishap, or when the parent must discipline the child so the child matures. Similarly, God could permit suffering in our lives to build us or test us or others and to achieve some greater good. Therefore, premise (4) is also not necessarily true. And again the argument fails, this time on totally separate grounds. Notice that the atheist must show that both (3) and (4) are true, while the theist merely need show one is false.

If I may be permitted to read some of your minds, at this point you might be thinking, "Even if there is no inconsistency between God and evil, surely the existence of God is incompatible with the amount and kinds of evils that actually exist." What good, you might ask, could possibly come from a pregnant mother in the wrong part of town that is struck down by a stray bullet fired from a gang member's 9mm?

This as its own hidden premise, that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons to allow the amount and kinds of evil that exist. But again, this is not necessarily true, and all I must show is that it is possible that God has a morally sufficient reason. As terrible as some things about the world are, people generally agree that life is worth living, from which we could surmise that there is much more good that evil in the world, regardless of the amount and kind of evil actually present. As for the kinds of evil, it is possible that God has some overriding reasons to permit the kinds of evil that occur.

Again, you might think that that seems pretty unlikely. But this would confuse the deductive problem with the probabilistic problem again. To refute the deductive version, the theist doesn't have to suggest a likely solution--all he or she must do is suggest a possible solution.

In summary, the atheist assumes at least two hidden premises in the deductive version of this argument. He or she must prove both of those premises for this version to be true. I have shown that both of those hidden premises can be indenpendently refuted.

Further, because it is the atheist who claims to note a contradicition w/in the theist's truth claims, it is the atheist that bears the burden of proof to show that there is no possible world in which premises (1) and (2) are true. That is an incredibly heavy burden, which the atheist ultimately cannot shoulder. The deductive version of the problem of evil is impotent.


Probabilistic Version

After the deductive argument was destroyed, most who want to use the problem of evil (POE) to show that God cannot be all loving or all powerful moved to the probabilistic argument. The inductive version admits that it is possible for the traditional God of Christianity and evil to coexist, but it is highly improbable for them to coexist. The argument looks like this:

1. If a god exists who is all loving and all powerful,
2. yet evil exists,
3. then it is highly improbable or unlikely that a god exists who is all loving or all powerful.

Let me make a few observations. Notice that even if the Christian granted this argument, this argument does not show that God does not exist. It is, however, a step along that path. At most, this argument can claim that the type of God posited by traditional Christianity does not exist. Further, this argument cannot show that God is not all loving and not all powerful; it can only show that one of this is incorrect. But this is all only the case if we grant this argument, and there are powerful reasons not to grant it.[/u]

Given that this post is way too long already, I'll be brief here, and will flesh out my comments on this version as other posts come in (if anybody actually gets this far into the novel :)

(1) Given the full scope of the evidence for God's existence, it is far more likely than not that God exists.

(2) Because of our finite nature, we are not in a good position to asses with a sufficient confidence that God has no morally sufficient reasons for permitting the evils that occur.

(3) Christianity entails doctrines that increase the probability that God and evil coexist

I look forward to your comments.

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Post #91

Post by otseng »

The Happy Humanist wrote: Perhaps what is needed is a new term to replace "omni" with one that implies ultimate power, without the self-contradictory baggage. Perhaps "ultipotent"?
I agree that the term carries baggage. How about "superpotent"?
If happiness is good, then your omnibenevolent God must answer as to why he does not provide it on a continual basis.
I throw the question back at you, why must God provide happiness on a continual basis?

I know that my kids sometimes wish that of me. But, sometimes I don't let them play video games all the time. But, does that show I do not care about them? No, actually, quite the opposite. Just because I force them to eat and sleep instead of playing videos games does show that I care for them.
otseng wrote:BTW, has anybody yet offered a working definition of "evil" for the purposes of this debate? I think we'll need to agree on some definitions here before we can further tackle the PoE.
I'd like to get back to defining "evil".

Scorpia suggested - "Good is not the absence of evil but the defeat of it."
tselem suggested - "Evil is the absence of good."

The problem with these definitions is that it can get circular. Good is not evil. Evil is not good. We need something that's a bit more concrete.

I'd like a definition where we can objectively determine if something is evil or not. So, I offer this definition - "Evil is an intent or action of a free agent that violates the wishes of another free agent."

When someone takes money from me without my consent, then it is called robbery and is construed as evil. If a man has sex with a woman against her wishes, then it is rape and is evil.

Things that are not free agents cannot commit evil. If a dog bites my leg, though it would hurt, it would not be considered an evil act. If my baby bites my leg, it does not have the capacity to choose what to do, so it would not be evil either.

The intent of a free agent can also be classified as evil. If I plan to kill the president, but don't actually kill him, then I could possibly go to jail.

If someone else has other definitions that can be objectively measured, or want to amend mine, feel free to post it.

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The Happy Humanist
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Post #92

Post by The Happy Humanist »

otseng wrote:
The Happy Humanist wrote: Perhaps what is needed is a new term to replace "omni" with one that implies ultimate power, without the self-contradictory baggage. Perhaps "ultipotent"?
I agree that the term carries baggage. How about "superpotent"?
mmmm....not quite "potent" enough. I chose "ulti"potent because it implies ultimacy...that is, as powerful as an entity can be; the most powerful entity. Not necessarily all-powerful or infinitely powerful, but powerful enough to qualify as God.
If happiness is good, then your omnibenevolent God must answer as to why he does not provide it on a continual basis.
I throw the question back at you, why must God provide happiness on a continual basis?
What "good" is he otherwise?
I know that my kids sometimes wish that of me. But, sometimes I don't let them play video games all the time. But, does that show I do not care about them? No, actually, quite the opposite. Just because I force them to eat and sleep instead of playing videos games does show that I care for them.
But if you had the power to wiggle your nose, and poof, your kids could be happy the rest of their lives, would you not use it?
I'd like to get back to defining "evil". ... "Evil is an intent or action of a free agent that violates the wishes of another free agent."
Don't like it. Too many exceptions. For example...what if the intent or action of the first free agent is to escape from a kidnapping attempt on the part of the second free agent? Or, what if the first agent is unaware of the second agent's wishes?

I seldom use the term "evil," as to me it implies a supernatural force. But if you insist...

Good: That which maximizes pleasure and/or minimizes pain for the greatest possible number of individuals.

Evil: An act is evil if it can reasonably be expected by the actor to cause unnecessary pain. An intent is evil if actualizing it would knowingly result in an evil act.

Note that this definition embraces evil acts against one's self, such as becoming addicted to harmful drugs. No second agent is necessary. Note also that "failing to act" is itself an act, for this purpose. So God's failing to prevent the tsunami, if it was within his power to do so, qualifies as an evil act.
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Post #93

Post by scorpia »

When someone takes money from me without my consent, then it is called robbery and is construed as evil.
I diagree. What if the first guy was poor and really needed the money? What if it was just getting it back after the money had been stolen from him?
But if you had the power to wiggle your nose, and poof, your kids could be happy the rest of their lives, would you not use it?
Good: That which maximizes pleasure and/or minimizes pain for the greatest possible number of individuals.
I disgree with this a bit too Eg. Someone might push drugs onto another believing that it's right because it would make the person happy, but is that right?
'Belief is never giving up.'- Random footy adverisement.

Sometimes even a wise man is wrong. Sometimes even a fool is right.

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Post #94

Post by Melis »

The Happy Humanist wrote: touche'. But I think this conundrum could be overcome by simply stating that the set of "entities unconstrained by logic" is null. In this way, your negation can be applied to the set (a necessarily logical construct), rather than the entitity itself.
Hm, seems that if there is any statement (doesn't matter for a single or a set) about anything which nothing logical could be said about turns out to be illogical by the very definition.

You cannot even say "it is it" (a tautology, logically true by a virtue of its form) without being illogical. And when you are illogical, nothing logical can be said about you.

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Post #95

Post by McCulloch »

The meaning of omnipotence seems to be become a critical issue in the debate about the problem of evil. Dictionary definitions are of little help since they simply define omnipotence as having all power. We seem to have two possible meanings for omnipotence:
  1. the ability to do anything that is logically possible to do
  2. the ability to do even those things which are logically impossible.
If we accept the second definition, then an omnipotent² being could create an infinite number of uncreated eternal omnipotent² omnipresent omniscient beings. If you say that he could not, then you have admitted that he is not omnipotent²; there is something that we have identified that he could not do. Any one of those omnipotent² could destroy the original omnipotent² beings showing that one or the other is not omnipotent². If he could not, then again he is not omnipotent². But if the original could not prevent his own destruction, then he is not omnipotent². This is an absurdity and a contradiction. However, much as I'd like to say that this absurdity disproves the possibility of an omnipotent being, all this does is disprove the possibility of an omnipotent² being.
We must abandon the second definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence means being able to do everything which is logically possible to do. There would be no physical limitations, such as the speed of light, for an omnipotent¹ being, but he still could not find a rational square root of a prime integer.
Any theist who insists on holding to the first definition can be dismissed as being absurd, ignorant or mistaken.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
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Post #96

Post by williamryan »

McCulloch
Any theist who insists on holding to the first definition can be dismissed as being absurd, ignorant or mistaken (emphasis added)
McCulloch, did you mean "second definition" or have I misunderstood your post?

All

Seems like the definition of omnipotence as blown into a big deal. I'd like to offer a (few more) comments on this.

First, the only theists consistently posting on this thread do not hold to a definition of omnipotence as requiring God to do logical impossibilities. Further, it seems like some posters in this thread merely want to toss out their arguments/positions w/o also dealing with the positions currently on the table. For example, the theists here are holding to a definition of omnipotence that doesn't require God to perform counterfactuals or logical impossibilities. Juliod, and maybe others that I can't remember, admit that the PoE doesn't apply to God with omnipotence as the theists here describe. Do others agree of disagree? Are we now on to dealing with the question of whether the theists are "limiting" God etc. or are we still dealing with whether God is required to perform counter-factuals?

Second, a brief--but important--point about those theists who do hold to an omnipotence whereby God is required to do logical impossibilities. Some theists (most notably Martin Luther and Descartes) have held that God's power is not limited by the laws of logic. For these theists, the question of whether the standard PoE syllogism (1. god is omnibenevolent and omnipotent; 2. evil exists; 3. therefore either God doesn't exist or God is not omnibenevolent, or God is not omnipotent) invovles some kind of contradiction is irrelevant--b/c they would argue God can do the logically impossible and is not bound by logical inconsistencies. So the theist who thinks that God's power is not limited not bound by logic at all will not find any problem w/the atheist/agnostic's claim that there is a contradiction here.

Third, no one is arguing the above paragraph.

If you guys want to admit the that theist's argument works with the modified definition of omnipotence, then do so (as Juliod as already done), then we can move on to discuss the probablistic PoE. If you have problems with the modified version--as it as been presented--lets deal with that argument on its own terms.

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Post #97

Post by McCulloch »

McCulloch wrote:Any theist who insists on holding to the first definition can be dismissed as being absurd, ignorant or mistaken (emphasis added)
williamryan wrote:McCulloch, did you mean "second definition" or have I misunderstood your post?
You are, of course, correct.
McCulloch should have wrote:Any theist who insists on holding to the second definition (i.e. that omnipotence means that even the logic can not limit an omnipotent being) can be dismissed as being absurd, ignorant or mistaken.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

theleftone

Post #98

Post by theleftone »

While we're working on a definition of omnipotent, Wikipedia has an article on it providing four different definitions.

theleftone

Post #99

Post by theleftone »

otseng wrote:tselem suggested - "Evil is the absence of good."

The problem with these definitions is that it can get circular. Good is not evil. Evil is not good. We need something that's a bit more concrete.
I disagree. While Augustine's definition of evil relies on a definition of good, good need not be defined in opposition to evil. Hence, the definitions of good and evil would only be circular if we define good as the absence of evil or "not good." So ultimately, using Augustine's definition, we would need only define good.

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Post #100

Post by McCulloch »

tselem wrote:[...] So ultimately, using Augustine's definition, we would need only define good.
Excuse me for asking, but is a definition required? Is it not sufficient for this debate to say that evil exists?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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