CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

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Avoice
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CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

Post #1

Post by Avoice »

Christians:
Are you under the law or not?

1) I hear Christians say they are not under the law. That it is done away with. Is that true?

The sacrificial system is in the book of the laws.
What makes you think you have protection under the law? Laws which you deny? YOU HAVE NO PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW. You cant offer Jesus or anything as a sacrifice.

2) Did you read about what God demands for a sacrifice to be accepted?

Any if Jesus' blood sprinkled on the alter? NO
You think a sacrifice in a disgusting place like Golgotha is fitting for God? You wouldnt let your dog sleep in such a place. But for an offering to God you are cool with it. Yes? Thats okay?

DOES THE LAW STAND OR DOESN'T IT?

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Re: CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

Post #21

Post by 1213 »

Athetotheist wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:55 pm
1213 wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:11 am
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:47 pm ...Then some, from the least to the greatest, don't have the law written on their hearts?
Yes, at the moment, but, in some sayd there are only those remaining that have the law written in their heart.
"For all will know me...."

If that hasn't happened since Jesus died, his death can't have established a new covenant contingent upon it happening.
I don't think it should already be completed, because "the house of Israel" can mean many generations of people. But, maybe it is good to notice that is is speaking of the "house of Israel", not all possible people.

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Re: CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

Post #22

Post by Athetotheist »

1213 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:30 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:55 pm
1213 wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:11 am
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:47 pm ...Then some, from the least to the greatest, don't have the law written on their hearts?
Yes, at the moment, but, in some sayd there are only those remaining that have the law written in their heart.
"For all will know me...."

If that hasn't happened since Jesus died, his death can't have established a new covenant contingent upon it happening.
I don't think it should already be completed, because "the house of Israel" can mean many generations of people. But, maybe it is good to notice that is is speaking of the "house of Israel", not all possible people.
That's just it----it is specifically addressed to the house of Israel, and it's never happened among them.

And it shouldn't matter how many generations are in the house of Israel. If Jesus's death was supposed to establish the new covenant and his death took place at a specific time, that should be the determing factor. Otherwise, the establishment of the new covenant could be attributed to virtually anything.

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Re: CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

Post #23

Post by Avoice »

[Replying to 1213 in post #6]

So...you think Christians are under the 'new covenant '

Really?

Here's the test to that idea:
How will we know when the new covenant is in place?
Because at that time NO ONE will be out preaching at that time.
People still have it preaching? Yes.

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Re: CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

Post #24

Post by 1213 »

Avoice wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:27 pm [Replying to 1213 in post #6]

So...you think Christians are under the 'new covenant '
...
How will we know when the new covenant is in place?
Because at that time NO ONE will be out preaching at that time.
People still have it preaching? Yes.
Nowadays Christian can means almost anything. Originally it meant disciples of Jesus. And for them it was said:

Then he took a loaf of bread, gave thanks, broke it in pieces, and handed it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Keep on doing this in memory of me.” He did the same with the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for you.
Luke 22:19-20

The new covenant was sealed by those words. If person receives that, he takes part of the covenant. I don't think many know/understand it. And the covenant includes these teachings that can cause the change and fulfill the promise of change of heart:

...'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

... as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

And so, person can be born anew by the words Jesus said. His words can cause change in person so that he is born anew child of God. And when person is born of God, it means this:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Which is why, person can become righteous by the words Jesus declared. And it means there happens change of heart and person will be righteous, which I have understood means God's law is then written into his heart.

As long as all have not heard of this message, I think it is good to keep teaching it.

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Re: CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

Post #25

Post by Athetotheist »

1213 wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:34 am
Avoice wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:27 pm [Replying to 1213 in post #6]

So...you think Christians are under the 'new covenant '
...
How will we know when the new covenant is in place?
Because at that time NO ONE will be out preaching at that time.
People still have it preaching? Yes.
Nowadays Christian can means almost anything. Originally it meant disciples of Jesus. And for them it was said:

Then he took a loaf of bread, gave thanks, broke it in pieces, and handed it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Keep on doing this in memory of me.” He did the same with the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for you.
Luke 22:19-20

The new covenant was sealed by those words. If person receives that, he takes part of the covenant. I don't think many know/understand it. And the covenant includes these teachings that can cause the change and fulfill the promise of change of heart:

...'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

... as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

And so, person can be born anew by the words Jesus said. His words can cause change in person so that he is born anew child of God. And when person is born of God, it means this:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Which is why, person can become righteous by the words Jesus declared. And it means there happens change of heart and person will be righteous, which I have understood means God's law is then written into his heart.

As long as all have not heard of this message, I think it is good to keep teaching it.
But that covenant can't be established until there's no more need for teaching. That's how the covenant is described in Jeremiah, so that's the condition which would have to be met for knowing that the covenant was established.

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Re: CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

Post #26

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:55 pm
1213 wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:11 am
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:47 pm ...Then some, from the least to the greatest, don't have the law written on their hearts?
Yes, at the moment, but, in some sayd there are only those remaining that have the law written in their heart.
"For all will know me...."

If that hasn't happened since Jesus died, his death can't have established a new covenant contingent upon it happening.
All in the new covenant have the law written upon their hearts and know Him (but not everyone who will be in the new covenant is yet in the new covenant; some may not even be born yet). People are still entering into the new covenant. The door is still open.


Peace again to you!
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Re: CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

Post #27

Post by Athetotheist »

tam wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:01 pm Peace to you,
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:55 pm
1213 wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:11 am
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:47 pm ...Then some, from the least to the greatest, don't have the law written on their hearts?
Yes, at the moment, but, in some sayd there are only those remaining that have the law written in their heart.
"For all will know me...."

If that hasn't happened since Jesus died, his death can't have established a new covenant contingent upon it happening.
All in the new covenant have the law written upon their hearts and know Him (but not everyone who will be in the new covenant is yet in the new covenant; some may not even be born yet). People are still entering into the new covenant. The door is still open.
"This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
"

It doesn't say "all in the new covenant will know me"; it says, they will all know me from the least to the greatest. And that hasn't happened.

Who supposedly has the law "written upon their hearts"? The ones sitting in the pews listening to sermons? They're the ones who aren't supposed to need to be taught because they all know the Lord......from the least to the greatest.........when the new covenant is established. So it obviously hasn't been.

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Re: CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

Post #28

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Athetotheist wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:00 pm
tam wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:01 pm Peace to you,
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:55 pm
1213 wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:11 am
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:47 pm ...Then some, from the least to the greatest, don't have the law written on their hearts?
Yes, at the moment, but, in some sayd there are only those remaining that have the law written in their heart.
"For all will know me...."

If that hasn't happened since Jesus died, his death can't have established a new covenant contingent upon it happening.
All in the new covenant have the law written upon their hearts and know Him (but not everyone who will be in the new covenant is yet in the new covenant; some may not even be born yet). People are still entering into the new covenant. The door is still open.
"This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
"

It doesn't say "all in the new covenant will know me"; it says, they will all know me from the least to the greatest. And that hasn't happened.
Who are 'they' if not the people in the new covenant?

(people coming into the new covenant is also ongoing; I don't see anything in those verses that suggest everyone is in the new covenant at the exact same moment)

Who supposedly has the law "written upon their hearts"?


The people in the new covenant.
The ones sitting in the pews listening to sermons? They're the ones who aren't supposed to need to be taught because they all know the Lord......from the least to the greatest.........when the new covenant is established. So it obviously hasn't been.
Or these ones are not in the new covenant (at least not yet). Not sure why the automatic conclusion is that the new covenant has not yet been established.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

Post #29

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to tam in post #28
Or these ones are not in the new covenant (at least not yet). Not sure why the automatic conclusion is that the new covenant has not yet been established.
The way the text of Jeremiah is written, there isn't supposed to be any "not yet". It says nothing about the covenant being established on an installment plan.

As I see it, you're the one drawing the automatic conclusion that the covenant has been established-----because the Christian scriptures say so.

Think about it----those with the law written on their hearts are all supposed to know God so well as to need no teaching. Do you know of anyone who fits that description?

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Re: CHRISTIANS: Are you under the law or not?

Post #30

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Athetotheist wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:42 pm [Replying to tam in post #28
Or these ones are not in the new covenant (at least not yet). Not sure why the automatic conclusion is that the new covenant has not yet been established.
The way the text of Jeremiah is written, there isn't supposed to be any "not yet". It says nothing about the covenant being established on an installment plan.
All it says is... 'after that time'.

It does not state 'all at once for everyone ever'.

So why read more than that into the text?

I just don't see what the objection is over.
As I see it, you're the one drawing the automatic conclusion that the covenant has been established-----because the Christian scriptures say so.
If Christ said so - or even just the new testament said so - then it is not an automatic conclusion. It is based upon something and/or someone.

Think about it----those with the law written on their hearts are all supposed to know God so well as to need no teaching. Do you know of anyone who fits that description?
Yes.

And if a person knows Christ, then a person knows His Father as well. Christ is the One who reveals His Father as His Father truly is. I am grateful for that every day.

The author of 1John also refers to such people not needing man to teach them:

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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