God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

How so? What justice requires eternal torment of non-believers?

The world awaits your answer to that one hanging question!

God's justice requires that those who continue to sin willingly without repentance be removed permanently from His grace and mercy (the tares separated from the wheat, Matthew 13) and placed under His eternal judgment (Mathew 25). The torment endured is not some mental or physical "torture" administered by God, but rather figurative (but real), an utter anguish and disappointment within the unbeliever at the knowledge of his deserved placement under judgment and not being able escape it, not being able to cross over from "there" to "here" (Luke 16).

Waiting is not necessary; I've answered this several times before.

Grace and peace.

[myth-one.com]

There is no valid answer, because what is threatened has its source in false religion rather than from a sound basic overview of Scriptural principles and usage.

Heh heh... We come full circle... yet again. I've lost count how many times this is.

Quite simply, the wages of sin is death. But the continuing problem is the wrongful equating of death as defines in the Bible with cessation of existence. That understanding was always, is, and will always be... wrong. In Matthew 25, after sharing two parables designed to reveal the realities regarding God’s kingdom, Jesus discussed a time when He will separate the “sheep from the goats.� Those declared righteous through His blood will receive eternal life, whereas those who rejected Him will “go away to eternal punishment� (Matt. 25:45), into a place of outer darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth (Matt. 25:30). In Revelation, we read that the wicked are: "...tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night" (Revelation 14:10-11); that is "unto the ages of the ages" - this clearly describes an unending duration (cf. Revelation 1:6; 4:9; 5:3; 22:5).

Eternity very clearly awaits all, though our ultimate destination look vastly different. Those who’ve trusted in Christ for salvation will immediately be ushered into His presence, where they will remain for all of eternity. Those who have rejected Him and His offer of grace, however, will spend eternity in hell.

If anyone disagrees, well, then fine, we agree to disagree. Surely we can just leave it at that and part gracefully and amicably.

Grace and peace to all.

Can anyone who believes that eternal torment awaits nonbelievers explain how the following three-word (often quoted Bible verse) can possibly be true?

God is love.

And of course John 3:16 cannot be true either:

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Shouldn't it read as follows:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that all mankind will have everlasting life."

(PinSetter's explanation of John 3:16 is to redefine the word "perish.")

But no matter how many "full circles" you've come, you have never addressed the conflict between everlasting torment and God is love.

Your response was to state that:

"His justice, which cannot be compromised in any way, is satisfied."

So God's justice is satisfied by eternal tormenting of nonbelievers?

Does anyone understand that response?

Can anyone defend the concept of everlasting torment being administered as an act of love?

If so, can you explain it?

[myth-one.com]

How so? What justice requires eternal torment of non-believers?

The world awaits your answer to that one hanging question!

God's justice requires that those who continue to sin willingly without repentance be removed permanently from His grace and mercy (the tares separated from the wheat, Matthew 13) and placed under His eternal judgment (Mathew 25). The torment endured is not some mental or physical "torture" administered by God, but rather figurative (but real), an utter anguish and disappointment within the unbeliever at the knowledge of his deserved placement under judgment and not being able escape it, not being able to cross over from "there" to "here" (Luke 16).

Waiting is not necessary; I've answered this several times before.

Grace and peace.

The Bible states that the wages of sin is death, and that death is an everlasting punishment.

Also, the Bible states the dead know not any thing -- thus they are not in any torment.

Now, how does your scenario of everlasting torment equate with God is love?

[brianbbs67]

Annihilation is eternal torment but you won't know it if you are. Ceasing to exist as a personality, is how I view it. Matter doesn't evaporate whether observable or not. It is only able to be transformed. Nephesh, the old Hebrew, is the best place to start. We Don't have a soul, we are a living soul. Nephesh= dirt + the breath of God. If God calls His breath back, we are dirt.

[tam]

Peace to you,

How so? What justice requires eternal torment of non-believers?

The world awaits your answer to that one hanging question!

God's justice requires that those who continue to sin willingly without repentance be removed permanently from His grace and mercy

A - this (sinning willingly without repentance) is not specifically describing non-believers (see Romans 2:14-16 for a start). But...



B - even if your statement was accurate, would not death (as in destruction; annihilation) accomplish a permanent removal from His grace and mercy? In which case, the requirement would be met without eternal torment, yes?



So I do not think you have explained how God's justice requires the eternal torment of non-believers.




Peace again to you Pinseeker,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 82 by myth-one.com]

Can anyone who believes that eternal torment awaits nonbelievers explain how the following three-word (often quoted Bible verse) can possibly be true?

God is love.

And of course John 3:16 cannot be true either:

Quote:
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Shouldn't it read as follows:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that all mankind will have everlasting life."

Good leading question, myth-one. I don't believe there is any satisfying answer, other than to question the question itself.

However, your last question is a non-starter.

We are not here to, and not called to, change what God has spoken.

[JehovahsWitness]

Annihilation is eternal torment but you won't know it if you are. Ceasing to exist as a personality, is how I view it. Matter doesn't evaporate whether observable or not. It is only able to be transformed. Nephesh, the old Hebrew, is the best place to start. We Don't have a soul, we are a living soul. Nephesh= dirt + the breath of God. If God calls His breath back, we are dirt.

Can't God destroy matter? Afterall if Gid made matter out of nothing surely he can reduce it once more to nothing.

MATTHEW 10:28

be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to

LIFE, DEATH and ...THE HUMAN SOUL

[Checkpoint]

How so? What justice requires eternal torment of non-believers?

The world awaits your answer to that one hanging question!

God's justice requires that those who continue to sin willingly without repentance be removed permanently from His grace and mercy (the tares separated from the wheat, Matthew 13) and placed under His eternal judgment (Mathew 25). The torment endured is not some mental or physical "torture" administered by God, but rather figurative (but real), an utter anguish and disappointment within the unbeliever at the knowledge of his deserved placement under judgment and not being able escape it, not being able to cross over from "there" to "here" (Luke 16).

Waiting is not necessary; I've answered this several times before.

Grace and peace.

Hell is not a place for sinners to go on sinning forever. That is so incredibly far from God's justice.

Hell is the negative part of the appointed Day of Judgment. That is when God's justice will result in, for those excluded from God's presence, His eternal punishment.

Yes, eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. Punishment is a judicial decision carried out. Punishing is a continual action.

When those excluded hear the judicial decision, of their exclusion, and of their inability to cross over, there will surely be much weeping, and much gnashing of teeth.

But only until their judicial decision is administered. They are shut out by being shut off and shut down and shut up.

God's justice is what it has always been, capital punishment by His eternal fire and brimstone, as exampled in Sodom and Gomorrah.

As Jesus said, "Remember Lot's wife".

Grace and peace to all.

[brianbbs67]

Annihilation is eternal torment but you won't know it if you are. Ceasing to exist as a personality, is how I view it. Matter doesn't evaporate whether observable or not. It is only able to be transformed. Nephesh, the old Hebrew, is the best place to start. We Don't have a soul, we are a living soul. Nephesh= dirt + the breath of God. If God calls His breath back, we are dirt.

Can't God destroy matter? Afterall if Gid made matter out of nothing surely he can reduce it once more to nothing.

MATTHEW 10:28

be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to

LIFE, DEATH and ...THE HUMAN SOUL

Yes, of course He could. But, I have noticed He plays by the rules He set up for this world.

[2timothy316]

Annihilation is eternal torment but you won't know it if you are. Ceasing to exist as a personality, is how I view it. Matter doesn't evaporate whether observable or not. It is only able to be transformed. Nephesh, the old Hebrew, is the best place to start. We Don't have a soul, we are a living soul. Nephesh= dirt + the breath of God. If God calls His breath back, we are dirt.

Can't God destroy matter? Afterall if Gid made matter out of nothing surely he can reduce it once more to nothing.

MATTHEW 10:28

be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to

LIFE, DEATH and ...THE HUMAN SOUL

Yes, of course He could. But, I have noticed He plays by the rules He set up for this world.

Could I get the Bible book for this list of rules please?
Certainly you're not relying on man's limited knowledge of the universe.