The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

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The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #1

Post by bluegreenearth »

Here is how wikipedia describes falsifiability:
Informally, a statement is falsifiable if some observation might show it to be false. For example, "All swans are white" is falsifiable because "Here is a black swan" shows it to be false. Formally, it is the same, except that the observations used to prove falsifiability are only logical constructions distinct from those that are truly possible.

Falsifiability differs from verifiability, which was held as fundamental by many philosophers such as those of the Vienna Circle. In order to verify the claim "All swans are white" one would have to observe every swan, which is not possible, whereas the single observation "Here is a black swan" is sufficient to falsify it.

It was introduced by the philosopher of science Karl Popper in his book The Logic of Scientific Discovery (1934), as an answer to both the Problem of Induction and the Demarcation Problem. He saw falsifiability as the cornerstone of critical rationalism, his theory of science.

As a key notion in the separation of science from non-science, it has featured prominently in many scientific controversies and applications, even being used as legal precedent.
Popper noticed that two types of statements are of particular value to scientists. The first are statements of observations, such as 'this is a white swan'. Logicians describe such statements in terms of existential quantification, since they assert the existence of some particular thing. For Popper, such statements form the empirical basis of scientific theory. The second type of statement of interest to scientists categorizes all instances of something, for example "All swans are white". Logicians describe these in terms of universal quantification.

One of the questions in Scientific method is: how does one move from observations to laws? From an existential statement to a universal statement? This is the problem of induction. Suppose we want to put the theory that all swans are white to the test. We come across a white swan. We cannot validly argue from "here is a white swan" to "all swans are white"; doing so would be to affirm the consequent.

Popper's solution to this problem is to flip it upside down. He noticed that while it is impossible to verify that every swan is white, finding a single black swan shows that not every swan is white. We might tentatively accept the proposal that every swan is white, while looking out for examples of non-white swans that would show our conjecture to be false. This is the basis of critical rationalism.

Falsification uses the valid inference modus tollens: if from a statement P (say some law with some initial condition) we logically deduce Q, but what is observed is neg Q, P is false. For example, given the law "all swans are white" and the initial condition "there is a swan here", we can deduce "the swan here is white", but if what is observed is "the swan here is not white" (say black), then "all swans are white" is false, or it was not a swan.
Questions to be considered and debated:

1) Did the method by which a specified theistic belief was acquired adhere to the principle of falsifiability as described above?

2) If the method of theistic belief formation did not adhere to the principle of falsifiability, what other accessible and logical mechanism would demonstrate if a specified theistic belief is false?

3) When there is no accessible and logical mechanism for determining if a specified theistic belief is false, what is the justification for acquiring and defending this belief given that it places the representative apologists in the impossible position of never having an ability to determine if the belief is mistaken?

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Re: The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #41

Post by bluegreenearth »

[Replying to post 40 by Purple Knight]

Since Fox News was the source of the article, would it be justifiable to presume the swan was technically an illegal immigrant?

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Re: The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #42

Post by Purple Knight »

bluegreenearth wrote: [Replying to post 40 by Purple Knight]

Since Fox News was the source of the article, would it be justifiable to presume the swan was technically an illegal immigrant?
Actually it happened in Ireland and they picked it up and cleaned up the article a bit. It's not like it's uncommon.

Image

Anyway I want a swan.

https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/black_swans.html

Swans are two thousand dollars for a set of two.

:wail:

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Re: The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #43

Post by bluegreenearth »

Purple Knight wrote:
bluegreenearth wrote: [Replying to post 40 by Purple Knight]

Since Fox News was the source of the article, would it be justifiable to presume the swan was technically an illegal immigrant?
Actually it happened in Ireland and they picked it up and cleaned up the article a bit. It's not like it's uncommon.

Image

Anyway I want a swan.

https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/black_swans.html

Swans are two thousand dollars for a set of two.

:wail:
It is clear that they still retain the aggressiveness of their dinosaur ancestors.

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Re: The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #44

Post by Purple Knight »

bluegreenearth wrote:It is clear that they still retain the aggressiveness of their dinosaur ancestors.
Oh yes. They'll kill whatever they see, they're bigger than people...

Image

...oh and also they shoot fireballs.

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Re: The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #45

Post by brunumb »

Aetixintro wrote: [Replying to post 32 by Danmark]

I know that it's fact. The date is just a coincidence. You see for yourself what happens there. It's not enough to brush it off as mere April's Fool's joke. It's important that we know about the World and not only these people who bolster basic sentences of science!
Mark Twain: "It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."

Here is the famous Carlos channeling hoax. Even after it was revealed, there were people who still believed he has for real.

George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #46

Post by Thomas123 »

[Replying to post 27 by bluegreenearth]

The swan 'discussion' appears to carry with it much wisdom, but I personally am considering this post of bluegreenearth. It occured before the swan apocalypse, and in an utopian era when matters demanded much less exactitude within our perceptions,in order to acquire the privilege of classification. I am ,perhaps applying my scrutiny elsewhere,in this debate subject, so apologies for appearing to attempt to momentarily distract the discussion away from this pressing swan issue.

I consider this post informative and well balanced and not in the genre of apportioning fault as is the norm for true /false 'discussions'. I am trying to fully understand this bit.

bluegreenearth:Atheism = Lack of belief in gods.
It should be obvious that the second definition of atheism has not been falsified. That definition is the one referenced by the vast majority of atheists when describing their position.
............




What does 'lack' mean. Does it mean No? Does it mean the hole that would otherwise be filled? Does it mean a n insufficient amount to reach a certain criteria?
I find this word to have a certain vagueness attached to its use, almost like a caveat.
Why not replace it with No?
If this version of atheism is contaminated with the most minuscule of God component then what does it become?
If I had a lack of cement I would not build a house but I might attempt a wall.
If there is a complete absence of water, then there is NO water.
Surely the logic here is that this description of Atheism dismisses 'God belief', as being a belief in absolutely nothing?
Is this atheistic awareness , the perceived default condition of the human
You are probably correct in asserting that this 'should be obvious' but for me personally, I lack insight on this matter.

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Re: The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #47

Post by bluegreenearth »

Thomas Mc Donald wrote: [Replying to post 27 by bluegreenearth]

The swan 'discussion' appears to carry with it much wisdom, but I personally am considering this post of bluegreenearth. It occured before the swan apocalypse, and in an utopian era when matters demanded much less exactitude within our perceptions,in order to acquire the privilege of classification. I am ,perhaps applying my scrutiny elsewhere,in this debate subject, so apologies for appearing to attempt to momentarily distract the discussion away from this pressing swan issue.

I consider this post informative and well balanced and not in the genre of apportioning fault as is the norm for true /false 'discussions'. I am trying to fully understand this bit.

bluegreenearth:Atheism = Lack of belief in gods.
It should be obvious that the second definition of atheism has not been falsified. That definition is the one referenced by the vast majority of atheists when describing their position.
............




What does 'lack' mean. Does it mean No? Does it mean the hole that would otherwise be filled? Does it mean a n insufficient amount to reach a certain criteria?
I find this word to have a certain vagueness attached to its use, almost like a caveat.
Why not replace it with No?
If this version of atheism is contaminated with the most minuscule of God component then what does it become?
If I had a lack of cement I would not build a house but I might attempt a wall.
If there is a complete absence of water, then there is NO water.
Surely the logic here is that this description of Atheism dismisses 'God belief', as being a belief in absolutely nothing?
Is this atheistic awareness , the perceived default condition of the human
You are probably correct in asserting that this 'should be obvious' but for me personally, I lack insight on this matter.
If you want to replace "lack of belief in gods" with "no belief in gods," I don't see any obvious issues with that as long as the distinction from "belief that no gods exist" remains in place. Of course, I always reserve the right to be smarter later if there turns out to be some meaningful difference between "lack of belief" and "no belief."

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Re: The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #48

Post by Thomas123 »

bluegreenearth wrote: [Replying to post 25 by Aetixintro]

Please identify which definition of atheism is referenced in your post.

1) Atheism = Belief that no gods exists.

or

2) Atheism = Lack of belief in gods.

It should be obvious that the second definition of atheism has not been falsified. That definition is the one referenced by the vast majority of atheists when describing their position.

The only way to falsify the first definition is to demonstrate the existence of a god. However, I'll concede that there is insufficient evidence to demonstrate the nonexistence of any gods. At the same time, the given arguments from your post do not demonstrate the existence of a god either.

As for why you would bother to submit a religious belief to some scientific method of falsifiability, I never claimed you could or should. To the best of my understanding, the claim that God exists is unfalsifiable and not testable by any known scientific method. The issue with an unfalsifiable belief is that it cannot be demonstrated as reliably true. To be clear, the unreliability applies only to the unfalsifiable claim itself and not necessarily to the comfort or meaning it might bring those who believe it is true. In this case, the unfalsifiable belief in God might reliably bring you comfort and meaning, but the claim that God exists cannot be demonstrated as reliably true. This is because, even if God happens to not exist but apologetic arguments have been sufficient to convince you otherwise, the unfalsifiable belief in the existence of God would still reliably serve to bring you the perception of comfort and meaning.
If I do as you permit ,I have you asking, Aetixintro,to identify between these two
1) Atheism = Belief that no gods exists.

or

2) Atheism =No belief in gods

How would his explanation, 'pan out'?

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Re: The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #49

Post by bluegreenearth »

[Replying to post 48 by Thomas Mc Donald]

Nothing about his explanation will have changed because "lack of belief in gods" and "no belief in gods" means practically the same thing for the purposes of my response.

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Re: The Necessity of Falsifiability in Belief Formation

Post #50

Post by Thomas123 »

[Replying to post 49 by bluegreenearth]

You appear to dodge the original request you made to Aetixintro.

Belief that no gods exists.= No belief in gods

The same or different? How?

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