What is special about Jesus?

[Wootah]

If we can agree that bulls and lambs are insufficient propitiations for our sins then what makes Jesus a sufficient propitiation?

Especially if you think Jesus is a created being then what makes one created being sufficient and another insufficient?

If he is a human then how did he pull it off to not sin for 33 years? Was Jesus created perfect?

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to brunumb in post #3]

That always sounded like a post hoc rationalization to me. Getting yourself executed as a criminal doesn't seem like any sacrifice to a god that I've heard about. It all seems more like an accident than the planned event it should be if God sent his son to dies for our sins. Such a clumsy affair, unbefitting an omnipotent being capable of creating an entire complex universe.

The penalty for sin is death or other words eternal separation from God. It is sin that makes people criminals. If Jesus was dying for a criminal's sin then He would have had to die a criminal's death. John chapter 18 shows us how Jesus was in control of all the events that were happening to Him.

John 18:4-9

4Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

6As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

7Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

8Jesus answered I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

9That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

This is why none of the disciples were arrested with Jesus.

[theophile]

There comes a time when God - or anyone with power really - has to seriously consider if the whole thing was a mistake, because of our sins.

Hang on a minute. Your are trying to blame humans for God's mistake. God's plan was foiled by ignorant human beings? Really?

I believe God admits regret for the whole situation if you read the story. But this doesn't mean drastic action isn't needed. For a more relatable analogy, the German people may have been to blame for putting the Nazi's in power. This doesn't mean the Nazi regime didn't need to be blotted out.

[theophile]

So, to return to your question, it simply had to be a human being (versus a lamb or a bull), because we are the ones who were given the mantle of rule.

The notion that any god would require a human sacrifice for whatever reason is totally abhorrent. No deity requiring the blood of a living thing is worthy of respect let alone worship.

The book of Job makes it explicit so I'll shift to that.

Either God admits that the naysayers (the Satan in this case) are right about humankind, and calls the whole thing off. (In which case, either the world is allowed to fall to hell or is actively wiped clean). Or else God needs to prove to the naysayers that they are wrong, and that humankind is in fact worthy of rule (despite our track record). Which yes, means that one of us needs to demonstrate our selfless commitment to the cause (as the Satan argues against God, "Job only does it because of what is in it for him").

So again, what would you do? Would you make one suffer to save the rest? Or would you let the whole thing die out? You're ignoring the problem.

[1213]

If we can agree that bulls and lambs are insufficient propitiations for our sins then what makes Jesus a sufficient propitiation?

Especially if you think Jesus is a created being then what makes one created being sufficient and another insufficient?

If he is a human then how did he pull it off to not sin for 33 years? Was Jesus created perfect?

By what the Bible tells, Jesus was born of God. And if one is born of God, he is righteous.

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from thebeginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he mightdestroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commitsin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he isborn of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the childrenof the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither ishe who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Other people could also be born of God by these:

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right tobecome God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were bornnot of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, butof God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing.The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

With God, it is possible to be righteous and without sin.

And about the propitiation, Jesus used his life for us, by declaring the message God had commanded him to speak. Because he sacrificed his life for us by that way, we can have the knowledge that leads to life. Killing animals as sacrifice, doesn’t cause any change in person’s heart for better, like the teachings and example of Jesus can do. That is why Jesus is the perfect propitiation.

[brunumb]

So again, what would you do? Would you make one suffer to save the rest? Or would you let the whole thing die out? You're ignoring the problem.

The book of Job is one of the most heinous accounts of God's brutality in the Bible.

As for me ignoring the problem, there is no problem. The notion of sin and reparation and all that sacrifice nonsense is just a religious invention.

[brunumb]

By what the Bible tells, Jesus was born of God. And if one is born of God, he is righteous.

That simply assumes facts not in evidence. Please demonstrate that any attributes of God are real. So far God has failed to do so, but then it's hard to do when he spends all of his time in hiding.

[Wootah]

So let's get this straight... Jesus is a human being, creature or God? I'm confused

That is what we are trying to work out in effect.

[Wootah]

[Replying to jimtatertayte in post #4]

I find that hard to follow. Are you arguing Jesus is a special creature?

Did I say Jesus was a special creature?

I found it hard to follow. What are you saying?

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #10]

His superiority. The value if a human is more than that of any number of animals. Being a perfect human Jesus sacrifice was more valuable to God than any animal. God deemed it sufficient to cover for our sins.

How can a human be perfect? Are you talking about humans as we know them?

Why can't God deem anything as sufficient if he is deeming? Did Jesus actually do what was required to be a perfect sacrifice or did God deem it?

God decides on a things intrinsic value. Everything he makes is good and perfect if it stays true to its purpose, but everything was created "according to its kind". Both Adam and Jesus were a "kind" (mankind) and mankind was the crowning glory of the physical creation. Superior to animals in that only humans are described as being made in His (Gods) image.

How is Jesus according to mankind if he was made perfect?

Jesus isn't human now but he was. How did he manage to live without committing a sin? His complete LOVE for God, his personal integrity and his unwavering love of goodness and truth.

So are you arguing Jesus is perfect or that he was not perfect but managed to live a perfect life?

Yes, Jesus was created by JEHOVAH God and everything Jehovah does is perfect.

So how can there be any sin at all?

Can God create God? Do you think that an omnipotent being can make another omnipotent being?

[theophile]

So again, what would you do? Would you make one suffer to save the rest? Or would you let the whole thing die out? You're ignoring the problem.

The book of Job is one of the most heinous accounts of God's brutality in the Bible.

As for me ignoring the problem, there is no problem. The notion of sin and reparation and all that sacrifice nonsense is just a religious invention.

Calling something heinous doesn't make it so. And nobody said anything about reparation, as if Job's or Jesus' sacrifice somehow pays the price for our sins. It is not a matter of making reparations, but of redemption.

For example, you take a math test one day and fail. The next day you take it again and pass. No reparations there, just redemption.
Same thing here. But in this case, Job and Jesus show that they are worthy of their place in this world. In doing so they redeem us all, just as you passing the test shows that we all have the potential to do math.

I too think that the idea of reparations here is nonsense.