Apologetics & Illness

[Paul of Tarsus]

Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.

One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.

[SeekerofTruth]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #1]

Firstly, is God omnipotent? I will answer a question with a question. Do you have a television remote? You can physically get up to change the channel if you want. However, a device was made available to adjust your will from afar. We were created to do God’s will. We are the hands and feet of Christ. We will share in the inheritance because we, the Church, are the physical embodiment of God of Earth.

Secondly, sickness is a result of imbalance. The Bible teaches us what to eat and how to live to sustain balance. It is an improper diet, stress and self abuse that prevents the body from repairing itself. Unclean spirits can manifest in a body that is out of balance. All creation is in concert. He started procreation in a way that eliminates the “weak” (genetically inferior) and promotes the strong. Man’s independence of God’s plan caused the same effect as when your cells no longer serve the body. They become rogue, reproducing and feeding out of control creating a toxic environment for the rest of the organism. Man has become to this planet what cancer is to the body. Can God bring a scalpel and cut away the undesirable? Yes, but what if you are the undesirable? He injected a cure that is slowly washing over His creation so that those cells that wish healing may be restored.

Thirdly, the word “evil” brought into question translates to many things. Perhaps in context “adversity” or “calamity” or “displeasure” could be utilized. The contrast of “peace” (rest and balance) is “adversity”. Adversity is what separates the weak from the strong to restore balance, bringing once again peace.

You have made a lot of claims about reality. Please provide evidence to prove your claims. (My comments on your claims are in bold.) Thank you.

[Replying to Compassionist in post #60]

Which specifically do you require proof of? Everything in the body works to achieve homeostasis (balance). I could expand exhaustively on this alone. The word evil is translated in Strongs words;

Strong's Number
H7451
Original Word
רעה רע
Transliterated Word
ra‛ râ‛âh
Phonetic Spelling
{rah} raw-aw'
Strong's Definition
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - {adversity} {affliction} {bad} {calamity} + displease ({-ure}) {distress} evil ({[-favouredness]} {man} {thing}) + {exceedingly} X {great} grief ({-vous}) {harm} {heavy} hurt ({-ful}) ill ({favoured}) + {mark} {mischief} ({-vous}) {misery} naught ({-ty}) {noisome} + not {please} sad ({-ly}) {sore} {sorrow} {trouble} {vex} wicked ({-ly} {-ness} {one}) worse (-st) {wretchedness} wrong. [Including feminine ra´ ah; as adjective or noun.]

Please prove claims you made in your post with evidence:
1. God exists.
2. God created us to do God's Will.
3. We are the physical embodiment of the God of Earth.
4. Unclean spirits exist and can manifest in a body that is out of balance. There are many illnesses which are not caused by improper diet or stress or self-abuse. Please prove that clean and unclean spirits exist.
5. All creation is in concert.
6. He injected a cure that is slowly washing over His creation. Please remember that 99.9% of all the species to evolve so far on Earth are already extinct. How is that a cure?
7. Adversity is what separates the weak from the strong to restore balance. Why would God make some organisms weak and some organisms strong? How is that ethical? Adversity does not restore balance. It leads to suffering and death. Please see: https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/iniquity.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 30851.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... itish_rule

https://www.newstatesman.com/economics/ ... eparations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll

https://www.adaptt.org/about/the-kill-counter.html

https://www.globalissues.org/article/23 ... and-equity

Why would I spend hours trying to prove anything? I cannot merely post links to help you believe, no more than you can post links to make me doubt. If you are unable to see the intelligent design of creation then you aren’t looking hard enough. This is the Logos spoken of in John 1. It’s not Word it’s Logos. If I thought you were truly interested in learning I might spend the time but I’m convinced you just like to doubt. If you really, really want to know, fast for a day or so then sit in the dark. Concentrate on your heartbeat, then your pulse in your neck. Clear your mind until it floods with light so bright you think someone turned on the lights. Then in the still of all, in the quiet, in the dark, in the absence of thought, ask, “God, who are you?” Then if you wait long enough for an answer maybe He will speak to you as He did to me then you too will have more answers and less doubt. Everything is balance!

You can't prove your claims. Otherwise, you would have proven your claims. What you said on your latest reply is an attempt to evade the burden of proof which falls on anyone who makes claims about reality.

Can you prove God doesn’t exist? Can you disprove unclean spirits, or even that you have or have not a soul? If creation wasn’t in concert only chaos would prevail. The endocrine system keeps the body balanced. Any mechanical engineer can see how the body was designed. Show me how it evolved and you would get a Nobel prize. You can’t. Neither burden is satisfied. I told you how to make a “phone call” to the One who can answer you. If you really wanted to know instead of scoff then you would be fasting by now.

You are still evading your duty to prove your claims. I am not claiming to know the whole truth about reality - you are. I am an agnostic pacifist vegan egalitarian compassionist. I am not a Christian or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Jain or a Buddhist or a Jew or a Bahai or a Daoist or Zoroastrian, etc. There are many ideas which can not be proven or disproven. For example, we can't prove or disprove whether we live in a computer simulation run by aliens. According to Hinduism, the world we perceive through our senses is not real but is an illusion called the Maya. This can't be proven or disproven either.

I have fasted for up to 10 days many, many times. I have spent thousands of hours in meditation and prayers across the last 39 years. You do not know me and would be wise not to make assumptions.

Living things are clearly not the product of intelligent design. Our flaws show that we evolved. Please see https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/human- ... ent-design

That book is no more proof to macro evolution than the Bible is to God. If I showed you a building made of bricks and wood, with a plumbing system and electricity and heating and cooling would you say it could have evolved from a cave? After time the metal from the earth formed copper strands and polymers encased it to provide a current for electrons to flow through. If a wind came and caused the roof to lift so it leaked, would that prove all the more it wasn’t designed and constructed? Can a cell phone evolve from an abacus? Our body is far more complex than a building. Our brains more than cell phones. Regardless, like I stated you have all of the answers you want. I don’t know you. I don’t know why you meditated. I don’t know why you fasted. I don’t know who you prayed to and why you didn’t get an answer when I did. That doesn’t mean I didn’t get answers. Let me ask you a question. What do you think happens when we die? Do you have thoughts on the pineal gland?

[brunumb]

Do you have a television remote? You can physically get up to change the channel if you want. However, a device was made available to adjust your will from afar. We were created to do God’s will. We are the hands and feet of Christ.

Quaint analogy, but it doesn't really get us any closer to the truth. What you have indicated, however, is that we are nothing more than robots for Jesus.

[brunumb]

Since the Christian God is on trial, this is His response to sin and evil; His forgiveness and love of His followers to do good in this fallen world until His return.

If he truly loved us he would have returned long ago. Perhaps he is having too good a time partying it up in heaven.

[brunumb]

If you really, really want to know, fast for a day or so then sit in the dark. Concentrate on your heartbeat, then your pulse in your neck. Clear your mind until it floods with light so bright you think someone turned on the lights. Then in the still of all, in the quiet, in the dark, in the absence of thought, ask, “God, who are you?” Then if you wait long enough for an answer maybe He will speak to you as He did to me then you too will have more answers and less doubt. Everything is balance!

And if God doesn't speak to you, try, try and try again until he does. That has all the hallmarks of self brainwashing.

[SeekerofTruth]

Do you have a television remote? You can physically get up to change the channel if you want. However, a device was made available to adjust your will from afar. We were created to do God’s will. We are the hands and feet of Christ.

Quaint analogy, but it doesn't really get us any closer to the truth. What you have indicated, however, is that we are nothing more than robots for Jesus.

Sentient robots.

[brunumb]

Can you prove God doesn’t exist? Can you disprove unclean spirits, or even that you have or have not a soul?

That's not how it works. Can you prove that Loomingfrum is not the one true god? If not, then you had better believe that it is because your immortal soul is at stake.

If creation wasn’t in concert only chaos would prevail.

Demonstrate that there is an iota of truth in that claim or it just qualifies as rhetoric for the gullible masses.

The endocrine system keeps the body balanced. Any mechanical engineer can see how the body was designed.

Any half decent scientist, or even senior student of anatomy, will tell you that the human body is actually quite poor as far as design goes. Look it up. It functions well enough for an organism that has evolved to survive and reproduce in the current environment.

[SeekerofTruth]

Since the Christian God is on trial, this is His response to sin and evil; His forgiveness and love of His followers to do good in this fallen world until His return.

If he truly loved us he would have returned long ago. Perhaps he is having too good a time partying it up in heaven.

Agape (love) isn’t affection. It’a described as a dutiful responsibility to provide care. We are instructed to agape our enemies, care for, not be emotionally moved for them. When a customer wants a house built, he draws up a plan, hires the workers and provides a down payment. He doesn’t move in until the house is ready. When the time is right, He will return.

[SeekerofTruth]

Can you prove God doesn’t exist? Can you disprove unclean spirits, or even that you have or have not a soul?

That's not how it works. Can you prove that Loomingfrum is not the one true god? If not, then you had better believe that it is because your immortal soul is at stake.

If creation wasn’t in concert only chaos would prevail.

Demonstrate that there is an iota of truth in that claim or it just qualifies as rhetoric for the gullible masses.

The endocrine system keeps the body balanced. Any mechanical engineer can see how the body was designed.

Any half decent scientist, or even senior student of anatomy, will tell you that the human body is actually quite poor as far as design goes. Look it up. It functions well enough for an organism that has evolved to survive and reproduce in the current environment.

If you are attempting to debate, then your “say so” is no more valid than mine. Any scientist who thinks the human body is less than a masterpiece has no credibility. Even if he was foolish enough to believe in evolution, he or she couldn’t dismiss the beautiful intricacies of the design, constructed by either a brilliant engineer or a billion years of freakish luck adaptation. The sheer possibility of us starting out as carbon and hydrogen in cosmic sludge is zero. There is a number granted to even one amino acid being formed accidentally. It’s not even close to one in a zillion. From those odds to us, pure and simple intellectual dishonesty.

[brunumb]

The sheer possibility of us starting out as carbon and hydrogen in cosmic sludge is zero.

I suppose you have the mechanism for which that probability applies to show us how it equates to zero. Plucking numbers from the air and applying them to unknown scenarios is not valid. We are working on the chemistry and biochemistry involved in an effort to show how self-replicating molecules arose and we are making progress, your biblically inspired dismissal notwithstanding.

There is a number granted to even one amino acid being formed accidentally. It’s not even close to one in a zillion. From those odds to us, pure and simple intellectual dishonesty.

Dishonesty?
"50 years ago, scientists caught their first glimpse of amino acids from outer space"
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/50- ... uter-space

[John Bauer]

If sin and evil are not created entities like rocks or trees, exactly how are they brought into the world?

There is a theological position that maintains these are apophatic terms referring to a privation, that is, the absence of good.¹ Just as darkness is not a substance in itself but is the absence of light, so Augustine argued that evil is not itself a substance or entity: "For evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name ‘evil’." Ergo, sin and evil are explained by the absence of good (i.e., separation from God, rebellion against God, disobedience to God, enmity with God), wherein God defines good.

There are other approaches to defining and explaining evil, of course, but this is the one that reflects my theological perspective.

__________
¹ Typical of Augustinian theology, such as Calvinism.