Should church leaders be vetted more than they are?

[nobspeople]

An article (see below) kicked off a thought: Should church leaders be (better) vetted before being offered a leadership role in a church or religious organization?

Independent of denomination, power intoxicates some. With power often times comes influence and, more to many peoples' liking, money. It's no surprise that churches can be ca$h cows. The bigger the church, many times, the more money it brings in. We've most all seen church pastors/leaders with private jets, Bentleys and so on. People like doctors often times can't afford such things. A quote from the article: "Caldwell used about $900,000 he received from the scheme to maintain his lifestyle and pay down credit cards and mortgages, according to the Justice Department. Caldwell has a masters degree from the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania and had worked in the financial industry."

I've said it before and will say it again: religion is the oldest profession in human history IMO. And these mega-church leaders show, if it's not the oldest, it's one of the most profitable.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-megach ... 06983.html

The above made mad me TBH

For discussion, should potential church leaders be further vetted prior to being offered the position? And should a degree in business be enough for them to become a church leader?

[JehovahsWitness]

As we have seen time and time in the news, this model allows sexual abuse. Glad to see you admit that the model your branch of Christianity holds to does so

Emphasis MINE


Your welcome. As far as " the model" is concerned, I think it no secret that Jehovahs Witneses hold strictly to the model of the bible's code of conduct. I not only admit to it, I'm proud of it. I believe it is, as I said earlier, perfect.

It's a shame that neither this admission not the repeated news reports will lead to any change to protect the innocent.

I'm sure you are not implying Jehovah Witnese leadership have thus far done nothing at all to protect their children from sexual abuse. Or that our religion or our leadership has higher than average instances of such crimes. As for the future the JWs leadership have publically expressed their desire to make any changes they are scripturally authorize to do to further protect the innocent in their membership. We can only hope this to be true.

Thanks again for your thoughts,



JW



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JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , SHUNNING and ... CHILD ABUSE

[JehovahsWitness]

... the skillsets required for "convince people to give your organization money" and "confidence man" share more than a bit of overlap.

Money sont a "bad thing". Even Jesus bad use of money. True Christians however need not ressort to manipulations to et the faithful to make voluntary contributions, as was the case in th bible, they have but to be informer of a legitimate need. As one of Jehovahs Witneses I am happy to make financial contributions confident our organisation uses the funds wisely.


JW

[Difflugia]

Money sont a "bad thing". Even Jesus bad use of money. True Christians however need not ressort to manipulations to et the faithful to make voluntary contributions, as was the case in th bible, they have but to be informer of a legitimate need. As one of Jehovahs Witneses I am happy to make financial contributions confident our organisation uses the funds wisely.

I didn't say that it is or that they do. Used car salesmen have a reputation for dishonesty even though people want to buy used cars.

The willingness of you and other Christians to donate doesn't eliminate the competition for those dollars (or Euro or whatever). A salesman (whether of cars or religion) that appears honest is a salesman that eats. Actually being honest is one way to appear honest, but it's only one way and maybe not the most successful way.

[brunumb]

Being a pastor is a calling from God, .....

Just how does that calling come about? The way I see it, everyone decides on an occupation based on factors such as their interests, goals, amount of effort involved in the job and monetary compensation for their efforts. I don't see choosing to become a pastor as any different and there don't appear to be any signs that God is involved in pushing people in that direction.

[JehovahsWitness]

Money sont a "bad thing". Even Jesus bad use of money. True Christians however need not ressort to manipulations to et the faithful to make voluntary contributions, as was the case in th bible, they have but to be informer of a legitimate need. As one of Jehovahs Witneses I am happy to make financial contributions confident our organisation uses the funds wisely.

I didn't say that it is or that they do. Used car salesmen have a reputation for dishonesty even though people want to buy used cars.

The willingness of you and other Christians to donate doesn't eliminate the competition for those dollars (or Euro or whatever). A salesman (whether of cars or religion) that appears honest is a salesman that eats. Actually being honest is one way to appear honest, but it's only one way and maybe not the most successful way.

Yes I agree totally. Jesus threw out the money changers because they (or rather the people they workers for) were profitering from their religion. Throughout time religion has indeed been a great money spinner for the unscrupulous and the greedy.

I wouldn't belong to a religion where its leadership used contributions for personal profit and as a minister myself then I know how important it is to be totally honest and never accept money for what I teach. I believe God is watching and will judge me if that were not the case.


JEHOVAHS WITNESES

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #10]

What criteria do you want to use?

Good question. Having never been on a board at a church, I don't know. I suspect board members would know.

Is being more invested in the career path an indication of integrity?

I wouldn't think so if a career path means being successful in the business sense of it all.
Which causes me to wonder: if people are suppose to give up everything and follow Jesus, why are preachers getting paid? Seems God has been forced to amend his ways and use people to provide payment when he should be the one providing directly. But then again, outside of creating everything, God hasn't been too direct with humanity (unless he's mad then he kills them).

How do you find someone that's a charismatic enough salesman to lead a financially successful church, while also being convinced that they're sincere and honest?

They should be relying on God, not the kindness of the congregation's dollars IMO.

[bjs1]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #11]

This seems to take extremes and treat them as normative, which is never a good idea.

Caldwells degree in business was mentioned because it was unusual. Virtually all pastors study theology. The Masters of Divinity is the standard degree.

There are pastors with private jets, but they are exceedingly rare. We are talking less than 0.0001% of American pastors, and even lower than that worldwide. Most of the wealthiest pastors (who are still nowhere near wealthy enough to own a jet) made their money from books and speaking events, not directly from the church.

When we look at the vast majority of churches, the clergy is always ranked as one of the lowest paying jobs for the amount of education and work required.

Even looking at megachurch pastors, most of them could earn more in secular work. A megachurch has at least 2,000 members in weekly attendance, and lead pastors there are paid between $100,000 and $300,000 annually. Imagine a secular job with that kind of success working for that level of pay. If an individual was the manager and CEO of a gym where 2,000 members paid to to work out every week, would that person being earning only $100,000 annually? Of course not! And since virtually no one would work out every week, this would require more than 2,000 actual members. The person in charge of that gym would be earning a considerably higher salary.

The idea that "religion" is among the most profitable professions is clearly false.

Given my knowledge of human nature, I think that prostitution remains the mostly like candidate for oldest profession.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #18]

The idea that "religion" is among the most profitable professions is clearly false.

Seems that's not entirely true: Religion annually contributes about $1.2 trillion dollars of socio-economic value to the United States economy, according to a 2016 study by the Religious Freedom & Business Foundation. ... And it's also more than 50% larger than the global annual revenues of America's six largest oil and gas companies.



https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/01/ ... 0companies.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ple-google

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/pra ... f-11463237

https://www.ibisworld.com/united-states ... -industry/

Given my knowledge of human nature, I think that prostitution remains the mostly like candidate for oldest profession.

Given that Christianity also tries to impede human sexuality in almost every manner, and that, by looking at Adam and Eve in the Christian story, and their need for repentance (a form of religious need) before they reproduced (sex/prostitution) , I'd disagree entirely.

There are pastors with private jets, but they are exceedingly rare. We are talking less than 0.0001% of American pastors, and even lower than that worldwide.

Where did you get this figure?

Most of the wealthiest pastors (who are still nowhere near wealthy enough to own a jet) made their money from books and speaking events, not directly from the church.

Again, please provide proof of this fact.

When we look at the vast majority of churches, the clergy is always ranked as one of the lowest paying jobs for the amount of education and work required.

Ditto above two responses in regards to evidence.

[benchwarmer]

An article (see below) kicked off a thought: Should church leaders be (better) vetted before being offered a leadership role in a church or religious organization?

Short answer: Yes, they should be better vetted.

However, if someone wants to become a church leader and can't get a position in an existing church, there is always the option of just starting yet another church. No vetting will happen when someone starts their own organization.

A similar and related topic to this might be: Should churches in general be more transparent? I'm not sure how to accomplish either better vetting or more transparency as churches are essentially private organizations run by private bodies.

[bjs1]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #18]

The idea that "religion" is among the most profitable professions is clearly false.

Seems that's not entirely true: Religion annually contributes about $1.2 trillion dollars of socio-economic value to the United States economy, according to a 2016 study by the Religious Freedom & Business Foundation. ... And it's also more than 50% larger than the global annual revenues of America's six largest oil and gas companies.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/01/ ... 0companies.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ple-google

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/pra ... f-11463237

https://www.ibisworld.com/united-states ... -industry/

Sure, but "religion" also employs far more people. For instance, the Guardian Article you cite says that "religion" is worth more than Google and Apple combined. Which is true. But "religion" employs far more people. If you count every employee, from CEO to an I-store janitor, across the entire world for both Google and Apple, then those companies together employ 265,899 people worldwide.

Just counting clergy not including secretaries, food pantry workers, janitors, etc. then "religion" employees more 430,000 people just in America.

The fact that there is money in "religion" does not mean that in real life people earn money through "religion."

Given my knowledge of human nature, I think that prostitution remains the mostly like candidate for oldest profession.

Given that Christianity also tries to impede human sexuality in almost every manner, and that, by looking at Adam and Eve in the Christian story, and their need for repentance (a form of religious need) before they reproduced (sex/prostitution) , I'd disagree entirely.

Mostly a joke to me. Ill let it go.

There are pastors with private jets, but they are exceedingly rare. We are talking less than 0.0001% of American pastors, and even lower than that worldwide.

Where did you get this figure?

I took the total number of clergy in America and compared it to the number of clergy who have a private jet. I grant that the latter number is a let fuzzy, but as long as it is lower than 40 (which seems nearly certain) then my number is correct. If you would prefer to move the decimal place one spot over then I think that my larger point would still be valid, and it would be saying there are around 400 American pastors with private jets, which seems wildly unlikely.

Most of the wealthiest pastors (who are still nowhere near wealthy enough to own a jet) made their money from books and speaking events, not directly from the church.

Again, please provide proof of this fact.

Ten richest pastors in America. None of them have drawn a salary from a church in years.
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainmen ... mind.html/

When we look at the vast majority of churches, the clergy is always ranked as one of the lowest paying jobs for the amount of education and work required.

Ditto above two responses in regards to evidence.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/ca ... /37490449/
https://www.bestmastersprograms.org/lowest-paying/