If God was the Devil, How Would You Know?

[Purple Knight]

Questions for debate: If the more powerful being were the evil, and the rebel the good, how would you know this? What clues would you look for? Would it even be possible to glean such knowledge in a universe where the evil being is omnipotent and controls all? Is it a nonsense question because a being that was truly all-powerful would have every authority and power to set up the rules for good and evil and simply favour itself?

[William]

... If God kills people (which he has) does that mean what he did was good because he'd God? Or is there another metric to use?...

I think what God does is good, because there is good reason for that.

If you do not know the actual reasons for God's actions then you cannot know that what he has done was good. You are extrapolating based on personal bias. It's hard to worship a monster so I guess it is necessary to use every trick in the book to whitewash his character.

That's an issue: No on knows for sure. It's all based on faith. And faith is about as individualized as finger prints. Yet, we're expected to have faith just 'cause.

all said and done, it may be one, the other or both. That we are all conditioned to think in terms of good/evil and make judgements based on that thinking, we are lost to approaching the question in other ways....

[Miles]

... If God kills people (which he has) does that mean what he did was good because he'd God? Or is there another metric to use?...

I think what God does is good, because there is good reason for that.

In spite of all the bad he does? Things such as

Creating evil

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


Killing innocent women, children, and infants

1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”


Condoning slavery

Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you.


Punishing people for what others have done

Exodus 20:5
I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation . . . .


Directing men to be killed for showing their love for each other

Leviticus 20:13
When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.


Committing genocide,

Genesis 7:23
In this way God wiped the earth clean—he destroyed every living thing on the earth—every human, every animal, everything that crawls, and every bird. All that was left was Noah and his family and the animals that were with him in the boat.

and all to no avail. What does that tell you?





.

[1213]

…In spite of all the bad he does? Things such as
Creating evil
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Evil is like darkness or emptiness, nothing, the lack of good. When people reject God, I think it is ok, if God allows them to be without Him and then also without good. And when good is not present, evil is, because evil is like darkness and good is like light. I think God does not do bad, if He allows people to reject Him, even though it means that evil comes to their life.

Killing innocent women, children, and infants
1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

No reason to believe they were innocent. And certainly Bible doesn’t tell in that God killed, or ordered killing of innocent.

But, there is one example f innocent person suffering and dying (Jesus). It may be possible, but, if so, then there is eternal life with God and this “life” is only like a short lesson. In Biblical point of view, death of a body is not the end and not a problem.

Condoning slavery

Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you.

I think it would be important to notice, they were allowed to buy. If other nations are so evil that they sell own people, I think it is ok, if Jews buy, especially if they obeyed all the rules that were given to them. By the rules they should have freed slaves in certain point (at least in Jeremiah 34:8-17).

Punishing people for what others have done
Exodus 20:5
I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation . . . .

Interesting that you cut the sentence so that it looks bad. I think that is evil way to mislead people. If you would have taken the whole sentence, it would have continued with “on the fourth generation of those who hate me”, which changes the meaning very much. I think Exodus 20:5 is not bad. People who do evil things are bad and I don’t think God has to protect evil people.

Directing men to be killed for showing their love for each other
Leviticus 20:13
When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.

Again, you twist direct words. Showing love is not the reason. The reason is the homosexual act, which is stupid act. Love is not in any case bad, Bible encourages to love even enemies. Homosexual act is not same as love. It is a act that shows person has not right understanding. It is basically as reasonable as trying to eat through your ear, because ear is also hole in your head. And people who are not reasonable, usually do all kind of bad things, which is why I understand that eternal life is only for righteous.

Committing genocide,
Genesis 7:23
In this way God wiped the earth clean—he destroyed every living thing on the earth—every human, every animal, everything that crawls, and every bird. All that was left was Noah and his family and the animals that were with him in the boat.
and all to no avail. What does that tell you?

He did that, because they were evil and violent. I think it is not bad. And because God is the one who has given life, I think He has every right to decide how long life He gives. I don’t think He must give eternal life for anyone, it is perfectly ok, if He would decide to give only a short life for all.

I don’t think it was to no avail.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 1213 in post #14]

No reason to believe they were innocent. And certainly Bible doesn’t tell in that God killed, or ordered killing of innocent.

I think the only reason to believe they weren't innocent is because God killed them and you're making an excuse for such a deplorable act from a 'loving' God.
Animals are neither innocent or guilty, they just ARE. Killing them, because you're ticked off at people, is masochistic at the very least, not to mention un-becoming of such claimed love.

Evil is like darkness or emptiness, nothing, the lack of good.

Perhaps, but doesn't change the fact it was created (or allowed to be created or exist) by God.

I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation...If you would have taken the whole sentence, it would have continued with “on the fourth generation of those who hate me”, which changes the meaning very much.

So you find it OK for God to kill for that that hate him? That's not loving at all but explains the reason why you think there was "no reason to believe they were innocent." Another excuse.

He did that, because they were evil and violent.

Thinking every animal is evil and violent is ludicrous as animals aren't evil or violent. They are just animals, not people. Anthropomorphizing animals to justify a supreme being that should be above such things as jealousy and anger (which are human traits which anthropomorphize such a being) is one of the sickening things Christianity teaches to excuse their destroyer deity.
Disgusting thing to teach to glorify their spoiled brat of a god.

[William]

[Replying to 1213 in post #14]

No reason to believe they were innocent. And certainly Bible doesn’t tell in that God killed, or ordered killing of innocent.

I think the only reason to believe they weren't innocent is because God killed them and you're making an excuse for such a deplorable act from a 'loving' God.
Animals are neither innocent or guilty, they just ARE. Killing them, because you're ticked off at people, is masochistic at the very least, not to mention un-becoming of such claimed love.

Evil is like darkness or emptiness, nothing, the lack of good.

Perhaps, but doesn't change the fact it was created (or allowed to be created or exist) by God.

I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation...If you would have taken the whole sentence, it would have continued with “on the fourth generation of those who hate me”, which changes the meaning very much.

So you find it OK for God to kill for that that hate him? That's not loving at all but explains the reason why you think there was "no reason to believe they were innocent." Another excuse.

He did that, because they were evil and violent.

Thinking every animal is evil and violent is lubricous as animals aren't evil or violent. They are just animals, not people. Anthropomorphizing animals to justify a supreme being that should be above such things as jealousy and anger (which are human traits which anthropomorphize such a being) is one of the sickening things Christianity teaches to excuse their destroyer deity.
Disgusting thing to teach to glorify their spoiled brat of a god.

Once again we have a display of barely cancelled anger for the idea of we existing within a creation and the implication of a creator that accompanies such an idea. The Middle Eastern idea of The Creator, being a convenient way in which to vent against any idea that we possibly do exist within a creation.

Scientifically there is no evidence that The Flood even occurred. In that, we need not argue about it at all - one would think - but hey! What kind of nut-job would even create spiders and stinging insects let along flood the whole planet to rid it of the evil things!

No. The real issues are bound together in judgement, and so it must be, for those who base their judgements on conceptual misinformation derived through ides of good and evil gods.

[JehovahsWitness]

Re: If God was the Devil, How Would You Know?

If a type of fruit makes people get sick or die, would it be able to tell healthful fruit from the dangerous? What if the poisonous fruit was called "good" but the healthy fruit was called "poison"?

How Would You Know which is which? By what affect each has respectively

If "God" is He who is wholly good and "The Devil"* he who is entirely without goodness, the distinguishing between who is who would be child's play.

* Devil is not a personal name it is a description and the word means "liar"; so we can identify the devil by his lies






RELATED POSTS

How can we distinguish between God and Devil? [this post]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 8#p1030118

Can Satan (and the demons) just pretend to be good?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p828001

Is SATAN omniscience and omnipresent?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p848009

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SATAN THE DEVIL and ...THE ORIGINAL SIN

[JehovahsWitness]

If the more powerful being were the evil, and the rebel the good, how would you know this? What clues would you look for? Would it even be possible to glean such knowledge in a universe where the evil being is omnipotent and controls all?

If the more powerful being were evil we would not be able to ask the question. We ask because we can observe the existence of good. In an universe dominated by an evil god, why should he allow place for good? Why would such a being permit for a good rival to exist?

[Miles]

…In spite of all the bad he does? Things such as
Creating evil
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Evil is like darkness or emptiness, nothing, the lack of good. When people reject God, I think it is ok, if God allows them to be without Him and then also without good. And when good is not present, evil is, because evil is like darkness and good is like light. I think God does not do bad, if He allows people to reject Him, even though it means that evil comes to their life.

No. Evil consists of moral reprehensibility: sinfulness, wickedness

evil adjective

\ ˈē-vəl , British often and US sometimes ˈē-(ˌ)vil \
eviler or eviller; evilest or evillest
Definition of evil
1a : morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked

Your self-serving definition best belongs in a trash can.

Killing innocent women, children, and infants
1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

No reason to believe they were innocent. And certainly Bible doesn’t tell in that God killed, or ordered killing of innocent.

Infants and young children aren't innocent? In what way would an infant or young child behave so as to reap enough of god's wrath to warrant killing it? No need bothering to answer.

Condoning slavery

Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you.

I think it would be important to notice, they were allowed to buy. If other nations are so evil that they sell own people, I think it is ok, if Jews buy, especially if they obeyed all the rules that were given to them. By the rules they should have freed slaves in certain point (at least in Jeremiah 34:8-17).

No need to spend money acquiring slaves, just conquer some town and take the spoils, women and children, as your property.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
10 “When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. 11 And if it responds to you peaceably and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you. 12 But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. 13 And when the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword, 14 but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you.

And if you think the women taken as plunder weren't made into slaves you're incredibly naive.

Punishing people for what others have done
Exodus 20:5
I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation . . . .

Interesting that you cut the sentence so that it looks bad. I think that is evil way to mislead people. If you would have taken the whole sentence, it would have continued with “on the fourth generation of those who hate me”, which changes the meaning very much. I think Exodus 20:5 is not bad. People who do evil things are bad and I don’t think God has to protect evil people.

It's the fathers, not the generations that follow, that the "hate" refers to. IOW, it could just as easily read:

"visiting the iniquity of the fathers who hate me upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

because "those" necessarily refers back to entities previously mentioned, which are the fathers. If it referred to the children it would have left "those" out and simply read: “unto the third and fourth generation who hate me.”

Directing men to be killed for showing their love for each other
Leviticus 20:13
When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.

Again, you twist direct words. Showing love is not the reason. The reason is the homosexual act, which is stupid act.

And the killing, an immoral act.

FYI, I specifically chose to use the word "love" in order to put the act in the best possible light, which, as it happens, is still not enough reason for god to back off from having two practicing homosexuals killed.

Committing genocide,
Genesis 7:23
In this way God wiped the earth clean—he destroyed every living thing on the earth—every human, every animal, everything that crawls, and every bird. All that was left was Noah and his family and the animals that were with him in the boat.
and all to no avail. What does that tell you?

He did that, because they were evil and violent.

But obviously not everyone was evil and violent---gotta remember the women, children, infants, and animals---yet god didn't care about them. Let 'em drown with all the rest. Nice guy, this god you worship.


.

[brunumb]

Evil is like darkness or emptiness, nothing, the lack of good.

No, it's not. Evil is profound immorality and wickedness. Rejecting a deity, imaginary or not, doesn't qualify.

[brunumb]

Killing innocent women, children, and infants
1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

No reason to believe they were innocent. And certainly Bible doesn’t tell in that God killed, or ordered killing of innocent.

Where does it say to sort the innocent from the guilty? Just how guilty are the infants and the animals? It is quite clear. Kill everything!

But, there is one example f innocent person suffering and dying (Jesus).

We don't know about most of the life of Jesus, so his innocence is just a biased assumption.