What comes first, family or God?

[nobspeople]

The below link is lengthy (about 60 minutes), but speaks, in part, about how one's religious beliefs in a religion can cause families to fracture. We see this happen in families of no religion, Scientologists, Mormons, Catholics, JWs (as in this example) etc.
While this doesn't always happen, at what point does one (or should one) put their belief system before their family?
Does God command such a thing, or is it something the religion dictates only?

[Paul of Tarsus]

...you agree to break up marriages if a spouse appears to threaten Watchtower dogma in some way.

Please provide a reference from an official Jehovahs Witness publication that supports this statement.

I gave you an opportunity to give me a straight answer to my question regarding whether or not you agree with the Jehovah's Witness who told me that the Jehovah's Witnesses will sometimes break up marriages. Since you refused to answer that question, I then assume that you and other Jehovah's Witnesses generally agree with him and will break up marriages for doctrinal reasons. If you want me to withdraw the charge, then answer the question sensibly, clearly, completely, and honestly.

Does the Watchtower publish any material on how a married couple can stay happily married if husband or wife openly criticizes the Watchtower and its dogma?

Yes...

Nothing you cited addresses my question regarding what Jehovah's Witnesses will do to a marriage if one of the spouses openly criticizes the Watchtower and its doctrine. Now, I did manage to find this on the JW website under Apostacy:

Would faithful Christians welcome apostates into their presence, either personally or by reading their literature?

2 John 9, 10: "Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. . . . If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him."

Rom. 16:17, 18: "I exhort you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. . . . By smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones."

No marriage is going to survive a spouse treating her or his spouse this way not to mention the devastation done to friends and family of the couple.

[JehovahsWitness]

You're born with your family, and you can't change that (though you can change whom you associate with). Friends are mutually picked. For many, friends become their preferred family.

While it is true one cannot choose one's family, family is still believed by many to be important. It can be a source of great joy and support.

JW

It is believed by some that Noah floated around in a boat with animals and Moses chatted it up with a non-consuming, burning bush.
Some believe the earth is flat.
What's believed doesn't make it any more true or false than it actually is.

So what us your point ? That you believe the family is of no importance ?

[nobspeople]

You're born with your family, and you can't change that (though you can change whom you associate with). Friends are mutually picked. For many, friends become their preferred family.

While it is true one cannot choose one's family, family is still believed by many to be important. It can be a source of great joy and support.

JW

It is believed by some that Noah floated around in a boat with animals and Moses chatted it up with a non-consuming, burning bush.
Some believe the earth is flat.
What's believed doesn't make it any more true or false than it actually is.

So what us your point ? That you believe the family is of no importance ?

What IS my point, you mean?
It's bolded above.
Asking if family is of no importance isn't good deflection on your part just so you're aware.
Ironic that a JW would ask such a question, being it's been showed in this thread JWs seem only to think family important when it serves their purposes.
Have a fabulous weekend!!

[Difflugia]

Kidding aside, why, or even HOW, such a loving supreme being that God's said to be could be jealous (feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages) make zero sense to me. Is he really that insecure?

I think it's more fruitful to step back from making sense of God and instead try to make sense of the text in which God is a character. It's not Yahweh that's jealous, but the priests of Yahweh. What they're jealous of is the success of their rivals.

I think the keys to understanding Deuteronomy and it's bloodthirsty, jealous portrayal of Yahweh are in 2 Kings chapters 21 and 22. King Hezekiah of Judah was a long-tenured Yahweh worshipper that reigned from 726 to 698 BCE. This was a period of relative prosperity (Assyria had just sacked Judah's rival Israel) and Hezekiah was apparently worshipped Yahweh to the exclusion of the other local deities (Baal, Asherah, Tammuz, Molech). The priests of Yahweh did really well for almost thirty years.

Then Hezekiah died and Manasseh took over. Manasseh was a bit more cosmopolitan in his religious views, rebuilding "high places" to Asherah and Baal that had languished during Hezekiah's rule. He also was apparently into atrology ("He built altars for all the army of the sky in the two courts of Yahwehs house."2 Ki 21:5) and was perhaps a Molech worshipper, as well ("He made his son to pass through the fire..."21:6). Yahweh's priests were no longer top of the heap and, if the vitriol in 2 Kings 21 is any indication, pretty grumpy at Manasseh about it. After Manasseh died, his son, Amon took over and "served the same idols that his father served."

Now, I want to take a moment to point something out. Normally, families tend to share religious views and pass them on to their children, but that seems to be less true for kings. First, the kings of Israel and Judah tend to have multiple wives and I'm guessing they weren't married for the conversation. My own speculation here is that the king himself rarely has much to do with the naming and raising of his children and those duties probably fell to their mothers. Since kings had wives from a variety of ethnicities, backgrounds, and perhaps most importantly, religious views, we get rather religiously diverse families and dynasties.

A "theophoric" name is one that includes the name of a god. Hezekiah means "Yahu strengthens," so we can infer that Hezekiah's mom was a Yahweh worshipper. Neither Manasseh nor Amon is theophoric. Josiah, the name of Amon's son, is once again a theophoric that means "supported by Yahu". Josiah's mom was apparently a Yahweh worshipper, more evidence of which is that her dad's name was Adaiah, "Yahu is adorned."

Now, let's look at what happened. A king that likes all the gods and encourages the people to spread the wealth deitywise has a wife that's a devout Yahweh worshipper and mother to his eight-year-old son. According to the Bible, there was some sort of assassination, or coup, or civil war, or something, but it's not clear exactly what (21:23-24):

The servants of Amon conspired against him, and put the king to death in his own house. But the people of the land killed all those who had conspired against King Amon; and the people of the land made Josiah his son king in his place.

Whoever was behind it and whatever actually happened, when the dust had settled, an eight-year-old boy was king and the priests of Yahweh were suddenly in a much better position. The king gave them a bunch of money for temple renovations with explicit instructions that his accountants not look too closely at where the money goes (2 Ki 22:7). During the renovations, the priests "found" an old scroll that scholars are pretty sure was, at least in part, Deuteronomy. It was probably so old that most of the ink was even dry.

So, this new book was written by a group of priests that for the last thirty years had to not only share the religious attention of the locals, but even had to share their temples. Josiah read the whole thing in one sitting and decided that he hadn't been doing exactly what Yahweh wanted. What Yahweh wanted, apparently, was for Josiah to first throw out the stuff from the other gods (23:4-8) and then slaughter the heck out of the other priests (the rest of chapter 23). That sure sounds like Deuteronomy.

From a purely secular standpoint, that means that since Deuteronomy was probably exaggerated in order to get Josiah all pumped up and murdery, the Israelites as a nation were probably not quite the rampaging killers that the Bible makes them out to be. There's a little bit of genocide in Numbers and Joshua, but nothing like Deuteronomy.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #75]

I think it's more fruitful to step back from making sense of God and instead try to make sense of the text in which God is a character. It's not Yahweh that's jealous, but the priests of Yahweh. What they're jealous of is the success of their rivals.

Perhaps. But that would then call in to question every single word of the bible. At least for me (though I suspect for others as well?). Which, for me, is fine. But that wouldn't likely sit well with believers.

[JehovahsWitness]

It is believed by some that Noah floated around in a boat with animals and Moses chatted it up with a non-consuming, burning bush.
Some believe the earth is flat.
What's believed doesn't make it any more true or false than it actually is.

So what us your point ? That you believe the family is of no importance ?

What IS my point, you mean?
It's bolded above.

Have a fabulous weekend!!

Fair enough. And you too my friend, have a joyfilled weekend!



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[nobspeople]

It is believed by some that Noah floated around in a boat with animals and Moses chatted it up with a non-consuming, burning bush.
Some believe the earth is flat.
What's believed doesn't make it any more true or false than it actually is.

So what us your point ? That you believe the family is of no importance ?

What IS my point, you mean?
It's bolded above.
Ironic that a JW would ask such a question, being it's been showed in this thread JWs seem only to think family important when it serves their purposes.
Have a fabulous weekend!!

Fair enough. And you too my friend, have a joyfilled weekend!

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

TGIF for me!! TGIF!

[JehovahsWitness]

Would faithful Christians welcome apostates into their presence, either personally or by reading their literature?

2 John 9, 10: "Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. . . . If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him."

Rom. 16:17, 18: "I exhort you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. . . . By smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones."

No marriage is going to survive a spouse treating her or his spouse this way not to mention the devastation done to friends and family of the couple.

Are you suggesting that we apply the above to marriage partners and minor children? I assure you, regardless their spiritual position, Jehovahs Witnesses do not ignore or avoid their marriage mates. On the contrary the bible based counsel is as follows...

Since blood and marital relationships are not dissolved by a congregational disfellowshiping action, the situation within the family circle requires special consideration. A woman whose husband is disfellowshiped is not released from the Scriptural requirement to respect his husbandly headship over her; only death or Scriptural divorce from a husband results in such release. (Rom. 7:1-3; Mark 10:11, 12) A husband likewise is not released from loving his wife as "one flesh" with him even though she should be disfellowshiped. (Matt. 19:5, 6; Eph. 5:28-31) Parents similarly remain under the injunction to go on bringing up their children in the discipline and mental-regulating of Jehovah even though a baptized son or a daughter yet a minor is disfellowshiped. (Eph. 6:4) And sons and daughters, of whatever age, remain under the obligation to honor their father and mother although one or both of these may be disfellowshiped. (Matt. 15:4; Eph. 6:2) This is not difficult to understand when we consider that, according to the Scriptures, even political officials of this world are to be shown due honor by Christians.Rom. 13:1, 7. - The Watchtower 1974 August 1 page. 470

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Do Jehovahs Witnesses break up marriages?
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Do JWs see shunning /disfellowshiping as grounds for DIVORCE?
viewtopic.php?p=1032193#p1032193

Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe the biblical directive to cut off all contact with an APOSTATE applies to marriage mates? [this post]
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To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , SHUNNING and ... DIVORCE

[Difflugia]

Perhaps. But that would then call in to question every single word of the bible. At least for me (though I suspect for others as well?).

Not at all. It would call into question the religious interpretations of every single word of the Bible, though.

Which, for me, is fine. But that wouldn't likely sit well with believers.

Is it really a virtue to let believers keep thinking they've got it right just so that they can sit more comfortably?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #80]

Not at all. It would call into question the religious interpretations of every single word of the Bible, though.

For me, that's six of one, a dozen of the other. No matter what creates the question, it's still, well, a question.

Is it really a virtue to let believers keep thinking they've got it right just so that they can sit more comfortably?

Personally, I don't much care what a believer believes (or how comfortable they are or are not) so long as that belief has no negative impact on me or my family.
They can believe is a swimming donut that becomes a cactus on the third Thursday of each month and spits out peanut butter when it's happy.