Why does God have a gender?

[nobspeople]

The bible speaks of God as a 'he' or 'him'.
Is it possible that's not true? Is it possible God is an 'it' more than a 'he' or even a 'she'?

If God is not a 'he', would that change how you think of 'him'?
Would it change anything about 'his' story?

I've seen some believers see this concept as offensive. Are you one of those people that are offended if God is spoken about as a 'it' or 'she'?

[Purple Knight]

The obvious problem this causes is when humans realize this is the case but still refuse to budge from that image of YHWH as a human male...they are in a position to being misguided...

Now I argue that this is not the case. Simplification is not the same as misguidance, especially when the simplification is necessary. But even if you're right, misguided about what exactly? God's dingleberry? Why does it matter? Or, to put it another way, are all the people who think the horned toad is actually a toad and not a lizard going to Hell? Are the people who think tetrapods (land animals) evolved from barracudas and not coelacanths going to Hell? Would people go to Hell for thinking God is male or that the seahorse they just saw give birth is female? If not, then where is the misguidance? We're talking about god and good and evil, not taxonomy.

Yes but you are arguing from the premise that YHWH actually is the one who wants to be seen as a human male - rather than from the premise that YHWH goes along with human expectation - what they expect to see or what they will only respond to seeing, as a 'real' image of YHWH rather than a False one.

Going along with the expectation is not the same as agreeing with it as actually True.

I'm saying he wants to be seen that way to avoid confusion, because that's my best guess. And if so he has thereby chosen that gender as permissible to refer to him as. For all I know he puts up a screen that just gives you exactly what you expect God to be, and they expected male human so they got (roughly perhaps) male human.

I also don't think he ever corrected anyone for referring to him as He. When ten thousand years or so go by and you don't correct anybody, you've more or less lost the opportunity.

[JehovahsWitness]

First we have to agree that the idea of "False Images of The Creator" can be referenced in the bible. Is there any such reference ...

Why do you ask ? Were you quoting the bible below?

... Christians are presenting a false image of The Creator in their artwork and religions which create and promote these false images are being untruthful.

[Tcg]

Art is "art", not science or maths....ART! The artist has read a scripture (or considered a thought or situation) and used his or her imagination to create an image. You can like it or dislike it...or possibly decide it doesn't properly represent what it is supposedly being illustrated, but from there to an implied claim of true or false is entirely outside of the scope of artistic expression.

In any case, I'm glad you've agreed with all I've stated.


Tcg

Ditto. It is good to find common ground.


JW

Ditto? In no way have I agreed with everything you've stated.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

In no way have I agreed with everything you've stated

... I'm glad you've agreed with all I've stated.

In no way have I agreed with ALL you've stated.



JW

[William]

The obvious problem this causes is when humans realize this is the case but still refuse to budge from that image of YHWH as a human male...they are in a position to being misguided...

Now I argue that this is not the case. Simplification is not the same as misguidance, especially when the simplification is necessary. But even if you're right, misguided about what exactly? God's dingleberry? Why does it matter? Or, to put it another way, are all the people who think the horned toad is actually a toad and not a lizard going to Hell? Are the people who think tetrapods (land animals) evolved from barracudas and not coelacanths going to Hell? Would people go to Hell for thinking God is male or that the seahorse they just saw give birth is female? If not, then where is the misguidance? We're talking about god and good and evil, not taxonomy.

None of that is applicable or why the question is asked and needs answering [as far as I am concerned] It is more likely that YHWH does not care how She is imaged by humans but there are still consequences involved with creating types of imagery, as can be observed by the history of both OT and NT religions - specifically in their treatment of women in regards to how male dominated religions [as ambassadors of their image of YHWH] contribute to this problem.

Yes but you are arguing from the premise that YHWH actually is the one who wants to be seen as a human male - rather than from the premise that YHWH goes along with human expectation - what they expect to see or what they will only respond to seeing, as a 'real' image of YHWH rather than a False one.

Going along with the expectation is not the same as agreeing with it as actually True.

I'm saying he wants to be seen that way to avoid confusion, because that's my best guess.

What confusion do you think YHWH is trying to avoid?

And if so he has thereby chosen that gender as permissible to refer to him as. For all I know he puts up a screen that just gives you exactly what you expect God to be, and they expected male human so they got (roughly perhaps) male human.

This is what I said when I wrote;

"YHWH goes along with human expectation - what they expect to see or what they will only respond to seeing, as a 'real' image of YHWH rather than a False one."

I also don't think he ever corrected anyone for referring to him as He. When ten thousand years or so go by and you don't correct anybody, you've more or less lost the opportunity.

The 'correcting' has to do with coming to realization that YHWH operates in that way and it is not how humans image Her, but to what degree such imaging distorts the nature of YHWH in relationship with the human individual.
A male dominated image allows for males to persecute females in the name of YHWH, and "ten thousand years or so go by and you don't correct anybody" doesn't mean that YHWH hasn't attempted correction and thus condones murder in Her name. See Jesus calling out the religious of the OT [John 8:44]

The image we place on The Creator has consequence and if the consequence shows the path taken by those who follow the image is detrimental, then those who see that, chose another image and associate path.

As an example, there is no reason why YHWH cannot be imaged as the planet Earth - but as can be seen in post #70 and the reply from The Tanager [a Christian] answers my question as to which of the two images best shows a real image of YHWH, with;

"of the two, I'd choose the Jehovah's Witnesses imagery and, in the same logical breath, say that that does not mean I think God is male or that God is masculine alone and not feminine."

So clearly Christians [in general] can only tolerate the masculine image of YHWH, one who uses the Planet Earth as [His] footstool. One who is a male human figure enthroned in some alternate reality...

Consequences of doing so can be seen in the world today.

[William]

First we have to agree that the idea of "False Images of The Creator" can be referenced in the bible. Is there any such reference ...

Why do you ask ?

Do you agree that the idea of "False Images of The Creator" can be referenced in the bible. Is there any such reference ...

If not, then I can understand why you quoted me out of context.

My whole Post:
The context of this thread clearly shows Christians are presenting a false image of The Creator in their artwork and religions which create and promote these false images, are being untruthful.

Just as it is seen that those who deny that the bible has a clearly masculine image of The Creator and even refers to The Creator as "God " [also masculine as "Goddess" is the feminine] and they expect to see The Creator as a male being enthroned in whatever versions of the afterlife they each believe in ...to blatantly plead ignorance as to what "masculine" means in the thread context is not a great retort in a debate setting. Just as surely as the worship of false images of The Creator are regarded as blasphemy, even according to the script.

False images such as the one exampled from the Jehovahs Witnesses catalog of art, used by me as evidence that indeed The Creator is presented in the masculine...and Christians are not so much denying this is the case as they are feigning ignorance as to what those critiquing the use of such imagery [written word and pictures] mean by "masculine" even remaining apparently ignorant after it has been clearly explained.
So either we are dealing with genuine ignorance or we are dealing with purposeful deception ... neither of which are acceptable strategies in a debate setting.

Since you are only focused on the bolded part of that post, I am interested in your answer to my response ...

"First we have to agree that the idea of "False Images of The Creator" can be referenced in the bible. Is there any such reference ..."

otherwise we have no common platform [agreement] from which to discuss the notion of false images in more detail. Is there such a thing as a false image of YHWH?

[William]

Clearly the question is "Why does God have a gender" and in that your argument that God 'does not have a gender' but is likened to 'male' and 'female' [although mostly male] in the bible writ - so as to somehow show that Christians do not really view God in form.

It gets to that, wouldn't you agree? God has no form really, and is just given form in relation to human expectations.

If I understand you correctly, where form is a physical form, then yes, I believe the Bible paints a picture of a God with no form.

But it does not really. What it paints a picture of is a Creator who is able to take on any form. and is not Itself, any of those forms.

I don't think it is always (or perhaps even usually) in ways that meet human expectations (I'm broadening that statement beyond the situations that would only be either male or female). For instance, 1 Kings 19:9-13 where God comes to speak to Elijah, the expectation being God coming in strength but coming in the sound of a low whisper:

"There he came to a cave and lodged in it. And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and he said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?” 10 He said, “I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away.” 11 And he said, “Go out and stand on the mount before the Lord.” And behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. 12 And after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire the sound of a low whisper.["or a sound, a thin silence"] 13 And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

In that particular case YHWH presents as a voice, much as YHWH did when YHWH was with Adam in the Garden of Eden. In the form of a voice. An audible voice from an invisible [formless] source.
How would one paint that scene so that the image is understood by the observer?

The better question to ask is "Why do humans insist upon giving The Creator form, in their imagery?" because that is the gist of the thread question.

I'm not sure humans can escape doing so. We think in images, whether drawn out or left verbal. You have given GOD form in your imagery, haven't you? Recently, you spoke to me of a Sphere. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by 'form,' though. If so, then I welcome clarification.

Precisely! You were shown a sphere which represented The Creator Mind in the image of a form. It is unavoidable that when interacting on the subject of The Creator, Images have to be used as a means of communicating such concepts.
Which is also why I asked you about your preference in relation to another Sphere [Planet Earth/The Rock] and a typical Christian image of The Creator being a male in a dominant position over the Earth. Your preference - what you considered the real of the two images, was The Creator being a male in a dominant position over the Earth.

and more to the point, "why is the imagery mostly masculine" [even with Christians naming The Creator "God" which is the masculine version of Goddess.

I agree with you that tons of Christians have settled upon masculine imagery out of male dominance, oppression of other viewpoints, etc. My point has simply been that many Christians don't and that I don't think the Bible positively does either.

Do you have any supporting estimates as to the difference between the "tons of Christians" and the "many Christians" or is this just something you believe?
Do you think that it would be better that the "tons of Christians" drop their notions re this imagery and join the "many Christians"?
Do you think that the "tons of Christians" are worshipping a false image of The Creator in relation to the "many Christians" who are not?

As to why I would avoid officially adding "She," to try to correct any of those wrongs, I'm with bjs1, where that puts too much emphasis on sex, where God isn't gendered.

I think that argument is fabrication. "He" or 'She" works the same way as to emphasis on GENDER. "Sex" is not what we are really talking about. It is not whether YHWH has a penis OR a vagina. It is about how imaging Her as a male has had its consequences against female human beings. Do I have to [yet again] post that picture of the woman being burned alive at the actions of Christians who proclaimed her a "witch"?

As to the confusion this might cause, examine how my use of the word "Her" when speaking of YHWH affects your understanding. Are you 'confused' by my using the feminine? Does it somehow work disfavorably for you to hear such? Is there a part of your psyche which resents or otherwise feels discomfort in that?

To use a neutral term, to try to correct any of those wrongs, I think would wrongly de-personalize God. I'd rather individuals talk the issues out.

Do you really think that The Creator cares whether we call Her an "It" if that would mean She is better presented in the eyes of human understanding?

[JehovahsWitness]

Do you agree that the idea of "False Images of The Creator" can be referenced in the bible. Is there any such reference ...

The context of this thread clearly shows Christians are presenting a false image of The Creator in their artwork and religions which create and promote these false images, are being untruthful.

What do you mean by a "false image" and upon what basis do you thus conclude?


(To the best of my knowlege the expression "False Images of The Creator" is nowhere to be found in scripture)




JW

[JehovahsWitness]

...there is no reason why YHWH cannot be imaged as the planet Earth

Biblically there is as scripture says

ISAIAH 66:1 - World English Bible

Thus says Yahweh, "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: what kind of house will you build to me? and what place shall be my rest?

1 KINGS 8:27 - New Living Translation

“But will God really live on earth? Why, even the highest heavens cannot contain you. How much less this Temple I have built!

[JehovahsWitness]

False images such as the one exampled from the Jehovahs Witnesses catalog of art, used by me as evidence that indeed The Creator is presented in the masculine...

You have not produced an illustration of YHWH as produced by Jehovah's Witnesses as yet. The picture you posted as an illustration by JWs of JESUS not YHWH. (Jehovah's Witnesses are not trinitarians). Consider yourself duly corrected.

I do not expect to see you continue this line of argument although there is no need to publically apologize as you have simply made an understandable error.

No need to thank me.

JW

To learn more please go to posts related to ...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ARTWORK , APPEARANCE OF JESUS and ...DEPICTIONS OF YHWH