Bad things in religion

[nobspeople]

Why do you think God allows bad things to happen to people within religion (whichever religion you think is the right one)?

While it's true these things happen to people outside of religion, let's focus on those within religion.

Christians murder people, cheat on and with others (within or outside of said religion) and molest children, for starters, within a 'God fearing and loving religion'. Why do you think God allows that?

Wouldn't he want his flock to be a beacon unto the world for positive things instead of the end of a pointed and accusatory finger?
Or is the reason why God allows this is that he's working his miracle through all these sinful, hateful, terrible things that are done within his organization for his benefit?

Or is this religion a false religion that God doesn't associate with and thus, has no 'dog in the fight'?

[Diagoras]

No religion is the right religion.
<snip>
First, those religions are not from Him. What people do in those religions are a reflection on them (personally) and/or a reflection upon the religion (and what it teaches/brings out in people).

<bolding mine>

I tend to agree.

There is no religious organization in our time that God has sanctioned. The only religious organization that He sanctioned (assuming we are speaking of the God and Father of Christ, who I am speaking of), was the Temple/priesthood/law system given through Moses to Israel. Remember how detailed that was? Once Christ came though, we were to listen to Him, to worship in spirit and in truth (we - because Gentiles were also invited to be part of the new covenant, where as the old covenant was between God and Israel, via Moses.) Christ did not organize a new religion though. Consider the intricate and strict instructions from the temple design to the law in the religion God gave through Moses. Christ did not institute anything like that.

Thanks for making that well-reasoned point. It does bring up quite a few interesting questions and potential topics for debate, but for now, happy to accept that view.

I'm not sure it is entirely accurate to say that He has 'no dog in the fight', because people seeking Him (and His Son) can and do get caught up or misled by religion (even if just for a time).

Cant really argue against that either.

Some people also come out of religion (a multi-headed beast) because they recognize the hypocrisy or the double standards or the falsehoods or the lack of love and the lack of truth, or all of the previous things combined - and they want <no> part in that.

Again, no argument against what youre saying.

There are also people wherever they are - religion or no religion, theist or non-theist - who do the requirements of the law (love) naturally, and who have love as a covering, since love covers over a multitude of sins.

<bolding mine>

If I said, "its possible to be a good person without being religious", would we effectively be saying the same thing here?

More than just Christians are invited into the Kingdom. Christians as king-priests with Christ for at least a thousand years; and others as subjects of that Kingdom.

<bolding mine>

This is where our thinking sharply diverges, tam. I cant reconcile the idea of no religion is right with the bolded parts of what you wrote above. Kings and subjects are details of a religion (a system of belief and worship) and it makes no difference whether its written down in a book or not, and whether its believed by millions of people or just you personally.

[tam]

Peace to you!

I won't comment on the parts we agree on, though I do acknowledge and appreciate them.

There are also people wherever they are - religion or no religion, theist or non-theist - who do the requirements of the law (love) naturally, and who have love as a covering, since love covers over a multitude of sins.

<bolding mine>

If I said, "its possible to be a good person without being religious", would we effectively be saying the same thing here?

I think our points are similar, so yes. Religion is not needed to be a person who acts from love. Religion can even hinder that law (love) from being freely followed, with the institution of various rules and edicts that do not show love.

More than just Christians are invited into the Kingdom. Christians as king-priests with Christ for at least a thousand years; and others as subjects of that Kingdom.

<bolding mine>

This is where our thinking sharply diverges, tam.

I understand.

I cant reconcile the idea of no religion is right with the bolded parts of what you wrote above. Kings and subjects are details of a religion (a system of belief and worship) and it makes no difference whether its written down in a book or not, and whether its believed by millions of people or just you personally.

If I used the words government (albeit, in this case, monarchical) and citizens, would you still feel the same? Or did you just mean that the idea is something that is taught in a religion? Because I don't think there are many sects in the religion "Christianity" that claim non-Christians can (and will) receive eternal life in the Kingdom, as subjects (meaning citizens) of that Kingdom.




Peace again to you!

[brunumb]

There's no god in the fight.

Or, there's no god in the fight.

To me, the world looks just like it would without any gods in the picture. As far as I'm concerned, gods were invented to explain the mysteries that early people perceived around them. Surrounded by lots of bad things, demons such as Satan were invented to account for those bad things that God theoretically shouldn't have allowed. And if demons couldn't be blamed then the easiest target is to blame us for everything that goes wrong. If we take all of the supernatural characters out of the picture then everything really makes a lot more sense. We may not have comforting answers to questions of how and why it all began, but gods are nothing more than invented answers.

[Diagoras]

If I used the words government (albeit, in this case, monarchical) and citizens, would you still feel the same?

Yes - it wouldnt really change the basic idea as I understand it.

Because I don't think there are many sects in the religion "Christianity" that claim non-Christians can (and will) receive eternal life in the Kingdom, as subjects (meaning citizens) of that Kingdom.

That may well be true. Its the receiving eternal life thing that I dont buy into (from any source) though.

[JoeyKnothead]

There's no god in the fight.

Or, there's no god in the fight.

To me, the world looks just like it would without any gods in the picture. As far as I'm concerned, gods were invented to explain the mysteries that early people perceived around them. Surrounded by lots of bad things, demons such as Satan were invented to account for those bad things that God theoretically shouldn't have allowed. And if demons couldn't be blamed then the easiest target is to blame us for everything that goes wrong. If we take all of the supernatural characters out of the picture then everything really makes a lot more sense. We may not have comforting answers to questions of how and why it all began, but gods are nothing more than invented answers.

We're of one mind here. I see nothing more'n a humn invention in god claims. Opiate of the masses indeed.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #10]

it does seem as if God is cool with it, considering how so many of his spokesfolks cover up such activities, up to and including failure to report such to proper authorities.

Sure seems that way, yeah?!? Either that or God doesn't care or there is no God, I suppose

He flooded him an entire planet cause he had him a tantrum. He has no shame. He's the Mitch Mcconnell of gods.

So true so true. But Christians always make an excuse (the ones that died weren't 'righteous' enough or whatever). I wonder if they actually believer this or if it's just a way to save face? I doubt we'll ever know.

Not so odd, as predictable.

Well, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt, but yeah

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #9]

No religion is the right religion.

So what are people to do, learn by God on their own (that's an honest question, BTW)?

those religions are not from Him.

I would agree. However, those religions are doing things 'in his name' (be these things good or bad) and they reflect on him. One would think, if he cared, he's intervene as biblical history shows

Yes (to not hiding one's lamp, but putting it out there for anyone to see)... but the pointing fingers are going to happen, regardless, just for faith itself. Though none of us are perfect.

I don't think most people expect Christians to be perfect, but I do think most people expect them to be 'better' than the average person. This would include, most likely, no killing, cheating, stealing, molestation, etc.
I know these things happen in 'religion' and 'religion isn't directly from God', but it's still a part of God and Christianity, yet these things continue to happen. If God drowned 99.9% of all life on the planet for whatever reason, it stands to reason he's interested (or at least, was interested) in things on this planet. This would include religion - especially ones in his name.

Christ did not organize a new religion though

I'm firmly a believer in 'man made religion'. If God didn't want this, especially to be made in his name, to promote his plan, his love, his salvation, etc, it stands to reason he'd intervene in this religiosity. Of course, we don't understand God's 'thinking' and don't see everything. Maybe he HAS intervened, but not to our sensibility?
Seems odd that we don't see it, however.

[tam]

Peace to you,

If I used the words government (albeit, in this case, monarchical) and citizens, would you still feel the same?

Yes - it wouldnt really change the basic idea as I understand it.

But we have governments and citizens right now. I apologize, because perhaps I am just missing your point.

Because I don't think there are many sects in the religion "Christianity" that claim non-Christians can (and will) receive eternal life in the Kingdom, as subjects (meaning citizens) of that Kingdom.

That may well be true. Its the receiving eternal life thing that I dont buy into (from any source) though.

Ah, yes. I understand that from your pov. When I wrote that added bit (in brackets), I just wanted to be sure that no one got the impression from my post that I was judging and saying that unless a person is in Christ, a person cannot receive eternal life.



Peace again to you!

[tam]

Peace to you!

[Replying to tam in post #9]

No religion is the right religion.

So what are people to do, learn by God on their own (that's an honest question, BTW)?

Yes, though not on their own, but through the Teacher God sent us: His Son, Christ Jaheshua.


I did see the rest of your post and will respond as soon as I can. But I didn't want to leave the above question without an answer.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

Why do you think God allows bad things to happen to people within religion (whichever religion you think is the right one)?

For the same reason he allow bad things to happen to' anyone, namely to Settle the issue of universal souvereignty.

Christians murder people, cheat on and with others (within or outside of said religion) and molest children, for starters...

No they do not; people CLAIMING to be Christian do. A Christian is someone who follows Christ and respects his law.. . biblically speaking, anyone doing such things disqualifies himself in God's eyes from being a Christian.

Why do you think God allows that?

See above(point #1).

Wouldn't he want his flock to be a beacon unto the world for positive things instead of the end of a pointed and accusatory finger?

Yes I believe He would.

.... is the reason why God allows this is that he's working his miracle through all these sinful, hateful, terrible things that are done within his organization for his benefit?

No. I don't believe so.

Or is this religion a false religion that God doesn't associate with and thus, has no 'dog in the fight'?

I dont know any religions that approve of murder, dishonesty and child molesting... but if such things were a part of a religions teachings and practices it certainly would not be a religion approved by God.






JW

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RELIGION, CHRISTIANITY and ...JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES