The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[Checkpoint]

How can a government be within someone? ...

I think it means, the King is in your mind, person knows in the mind the King and his will and wants to do it.

I asked you, how could a kingdom be in anyone's mind? Did you read Isaiah 9:6,7 and Daniel 2:44? Does that sound like God's Kingdom is just in someone's imagination?

Hello onewithhim.

I agree, the kingdom is not "just in someone's imagination". But neither is it just "a government".

To grasp what "the kingdom of Christ and of God"(Ephesians 5:5)is at any point, we must take note of and include OT prophecies such as the two you cited, the teachings and parables and prophecies of Jesus and his followers, and what is in Revelation.

These Scriptures cover many aspects of the kingdom. It us not a matter of "one size fits all", as it were.

What poster 1213 expressed could be a valid description of one way the kingdom government operates, couldn't it?

No. He said "the King is in your mind." In reality, the King is a very real Person---Jesus Christ---who will actually rule over the earth, as Isaiah and Daniel attest.

Well now, who is the king in God's kingdom? The Father, the Son, or both?

If this king, or these kings, are not in your mind, where on earth is he/are they? Somewhere in every real believer?

Yes, "In reality, the King is a very real Person---".

Are you saying that is only so in heaven, and in regard to him "who will actually rule over the earth"?

If not, please explain.

[onewithhim]

How can a government be within someone? ...

I think it means, the King is in your mind, person knows in the mind the King and his will and wants to do it.

I asked you, how could a kingdom be in anyone's mind? Did you read Isaiah 9:6,7 and Daniel 2:44? Does that sound like God's Kingdom is just in someone's imagination?

Hello onewithhim.

I agree, the kingdom is not "just in someone's imagination". But neither is it just "a government".

To grasp what "the kingdom of Christ and of God"(Ephesians 5:5)is at any point, we must take note of and include OT prophecies such as the two you cited, the teachings and parables and prophecies of Jesus and his followers, and what is in Revelation.

These Scriptures cover many aspects of the kingdom. It us not a matter of "one size fits all", as it were.

What poster 1213 expressed could be a valid description of one way the kingdom government operates, couldn't it?

No. He said "the King is in your mind." In reality, the King is a very real Person---Jesus Christ---who will actually rule over the earth, as Isaiah and Daniel attest.

Well now, who is the king in God's kingdom? The Father, the Son, or both?

If this king, or these kings, are not in your mind, where on earth is he/are they? Somewhere in every real believer?

Yes, "In reality, the King is a very real Person---".

Are you saying that is only so in heaven, and in regard to him "who will actually rule over the earth"?

If not, please explain.

I feel like I'm in a room of mirrors, trying to understand what you're asking. I can't quite get it clear. I'll try to answer as plainly as possible. I see no complication in what I believe.

The King of God's Kingdom is Jesus Christ, the Son.

He is in heaven, at the Father's right hand.

He is a real person in heaven, and when on Earth. He is now in heaven and will rule from heaven over the earth.


.

[We_Are_VENOM]

When God's kingdom government does take control of the planet (earth), all human governments will be destroyed and the earth will at long last be the paradise-like "garden" God intended it to be (Dan 2:44; Mat 5:3).

Both those scriptures could be talking about the thousand year reign of Christ.

Rev 20:4 "They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Jehovah's Witnesses say: Our citizenship will be on paradise earth.

But Paul says: But our citizenship is in heaven. (Phil 3:20)

What JW's say, and what the Bible say; always seem to conflict

[onewithhim]

When God's kingdom government does take control of the planet (earth), all human governments will be destroyed and the earth will at long last be the paradise-like "garden" God intended it to be (Dan 2:44; Mat 5:3).

Both those scriptures could be talking about the thousand year reign of Christ.

Rev 20:4 "They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Jehovah's Witnesses say: Our citizenship will be on paradise earth.

But Paul says: But our citizenship is in heaven. (Phil 3:20)

What JW's say, and what the Bible say; always seem to conflict

JWs don't conflict with the Bible. We realize that there are two groups of people that will live forever---144,000 that will reign with Christ in heaven, and an unnumbered group that will live on the earth forever. Paul's citizenship is in heaven, but the majority of mankind's citizenship is on the earth in Paradise conditions.

The scriptures (Daniel 2:44 and Matthew 5:3) do include Jesus' Thousand-Year Reign. Paradise doesn't end there however. The Kingdom of God and of Christ goes on forever, and righteous mankind will live on the earth forever, as Psalm 37: 9-11 and 29 brings out. Everlasting government in heaven, and everlasting citizens of that government upon the earth.

Have you not seen the verses in I Corinthians where, at the end of the Thousand-Year reign Christ hands over the Kingdom to his Father and God? Jehovah takes it from there.

"Next, the end, when he [Christ] hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as King until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing....But when all things have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinthians 15:24-28)

.

[We_Are_VENOM]

JWs don't conflict with the Bible. We realize that there are two groups of people that will live forever---144,000 that will reign with Christ in heaven, and an unnumbered group that will live on the earth forever.

Again, that is what you say; but that isn't what the Bible says.

Notice you didn't provide a fancy pansy scripture to support your "only-144,000-to-heaven" claim above..when usually JW's are quick to provide scriptures which they believe supports their claims.

Why didn't you provide a scripture about the 144k?

Because there is no scripture to support it, that is why.

Paul's citizenship is in heaven, but the majority of mankind's citizenship is on the earth in Paradise conditions.

No, when Paul made that statement, he was talking to (Phil 1:1)..

"all Gods holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons"[a]


Unless you falsely conclude that he was talking only to a small portion of the 144k, which would also mean that everything he said in the entire book would apply to only the 144k, and no one else.

But you wouldn't dare think that, would you?

The scriptures (Daniel 2:44 and Matthew 5:3) do include Jesus' Thousand-Year Reign. Paradise doesn't end there however. The Kingdom of God and of Christ goes on forever, and righteous mankind will live on the earth forever, as Psalm 37: 9-11 and 29 brings out. Everlasting government in heaven, and everlasting citizens of that government upon the earth.

Scripture states that there will be a new heaven and a new earth (Rev 21:1-3).

I conclude that this new heaven/earth will be the same place.

So in other words, the new heaven WILL be the new earth.

That is just my interpretation as I read the verses. I am by no means making doctrine out if it, but it is just my opinion.

Have you not seen the verses in I Corinthians where, at the end of the Thousand-Year reign Christ hands over the Kingdom to his Father and God? Jehovah takes it from there.

"Next, the end, when he [Christ] hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as King until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing....But when all things have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinthians 15:24-28)

Hmm. Interesting. Not to get off subject, but if it states

"...then the Son (Jesus) will also subject himself to the One (Father) who subjected all things to him"

Seems to suggest that Jesus is not subjected to the Father, otherwise he won't have to subject himself if he was already subjected, which is what you believe.

Hmmm.

[onewithhim]

JWs don't conflict with the Bible. We realize that there are two groups of people that will live forever---144,000 that will reign with Christ in heaven, and an unnumbered group that will live on the earth forever.

Again, that is what you say; but that isn't what the Bible says.

Notice you didn't provide a fancy pansy scripture to support your "only-144,000-to-heaven" claim above..when usually JW's are quick to provide scriptures which they believe supports their claims.

Why didn't you provide a scripture about the 144k?

Because there is no scripture to support it, that is why.

Paul's citizenship is in heaven, but the majority of mankind's citizenship is on the earth in Paradise conditions.

No, when Paul made that statement, he was talking to (Phil 1:1)..

"all Gods holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons"[a]


Unless you falsely conclude that he was talking only to a small portion of the 144k, which would also mean that everything he said in the entire book would apply to only the 144k, and no one else.

But you wouldn't dare think that, would you?

The scriptures (Daniel 2:44 and Matthew 5:3) do include Jesus' Thousand-Year Reign. Paradise doesn't end there however. The Kingdom of God and of Christ goes on forever, and righteous mankind will live on the earth forever, as Psalm 37: 9-11 and 29 brings out. Everlasting government in heaven, and everlasting citizens of that government upon the earth.

Scripture states that there will be a new heaven and a new earth (Rev 21:1-3).

I conclude that this new heaven/earth will be the same place.

So in other words, the new heaven WILL be the new earth.

That is just my interpretation as I read the verses. I am by no means making doctrine out if it, but it is just my opinion.

Have you not seen the verses in I Corinthians where, at the end of the Thousand-Year reign Christ hands over the Kingdom to his Father and God? Jehovah takes it from there.

"Next, the end, when he [Christ] hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as King until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing....But when all things have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinthians 15:24-28)

Hmm. Interesting. Not to get off subject, but if it states

"...then the Son (Jesus) will also subject himself to the One (Father) who subjected all things to him"

Seems to suggest that Jesus is not subjected to the Father, otherwise he won't have to subject himself if he was already subjected, which is what you believe.

Hmmm.

You aren't familiar with the verses about the 144,000? There is Revelation 7:3,4....."'Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of God in their foreheads.' And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000..."

Then after that the "great multitude" that was unnumbered, of all of the righteous who went through the Great Tribulation and emerged into the new system of things on the earth (verses 9 and 14).


Finally there is Revelation 14:1-3 that describes the 144,000 as "standing on Mt. Zion" with the Lamb, Christ. Since Christ is in heaven, the Mt. Zion is heavenly Mt. Zion, and the 144,000 are with him in heaven. They are the only ones able to master the new song they sing. The great crowd that is on the earth are not masters of the new song. This distinguishes the 144,000 from the great crowd.


Paul indeed spoke to the holy ones in Philippi as having their citizenship in heaven also. All the believers that accepted Christ after his death and resurrection were anointed to go to heaven and be part of the 144,000. Paul WAS speaking to a PART of the 144,000 "holy ones." Everything he said in his letters was directed mainly to the "holy ones"---those anointed to go to heaven. He was concerned to find all those who would rule with Christ. Then they would, much later, concentrate on helping the "other sheep" to find everlasting life. (John 10:16)

The "new" heaven and earth are understood two ways. The immediate heavens around the earth will be cleansed of the Devil and his demons, and the earth that we are living on will be cleansed and refreshed and gradually turned into the Paradise that God intended from the beginning. The second way is that "heavens" are the way governments are referred to in Scripture, and the government of the earth will be one---Jesus' government, a very new development, and the new "earth" refers to the righteous people who remain on the earth (billions of them) and constitute a new kind of earthly citizenship---no evil people.

Jesus is subject to his Father (I Corinthians 11:3) and this is just reiterated in I Corinthians 15. He always was subject, and always will be.

.

[We_Are_VENOM]

You aren't familiar with the verses about the 144,000?

Oh, I am certainly familiar with the 144k, I am just not familiar with any Biblical verses which state that only 144k will be allowed into heaven, which is what JW's somehow believe, despite it being unbiblical.

There is Revelation 7:3,4....."'Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of God in their foreheads.' And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000..."

Right, which means that they (144k) were sealed from the upcoming tribulation. Those verses says NOTHING about heaven.

Then after that the "great multitude" that was unnumbered, of all of the righteous who went through the Great Tribulation and emerged into the new system of things on the earth (verses 9 and 14).

And? What does that have to do with the 144k?

Heaven is not mentioned or even hinted in any of the verses you provided.

To say that only 144k goes to heaven is unbiblical and therefore a false Bible teaching.

Finally there is Revelation 14:1-3 that describes the 144,000 as "standing on Mt. Zion" with the Lamb, Christ. Since Christ is in heaven, the Mt. Zion is heavenly Mt. Zion, and the 144,000 are with him in heaven. They are the only ones able to master the new song they sing. The great crowd that is on the earth are not masters of the new song. This distinguishes the 144,000 from the great crowd.

Rev 14:3 states that 144k were redeemed from earth, which more than likely means that God removed them from earth when they were sealed.

Where they go once they are redeemed, scripture doesn't say...and it certainly doesn't say that they will be in heaven, and not even in the slightest say that they are the ONLY ones who will be there.

However, Rev 21:2-3 states that God is coming DOWN from heaven to dwell with man, and that he will live with them.

So scripture is clear that God will dwell with us...if this dwelling place is on earth, then it would make no sense for a select group of people (144k) to be dwell in "heaven", if God is on earth dwelling with man.

All believers whose name is found in the Book of Life, are ultimately going to the same place.

Paul indeed spoke to the holy ones in Philippi as having their citizenship in heaven also. All the believers that accepted Christ after his death and resurrection were anointed to go to heaven and be part of the 144,000. Paul WAS speaking to a PART of the 144,000 "holy ones"

Soooo, that small portion of a verse only applied to the select few of the 144k that just happened to be in the Philippi at the time that the letter was written, delivered, and read by the small group???

LOL.

Everything he said in his letters was directed mainly to the "holy ones"---those anointed to go to heaven. He was concerned to find all those who would rule with Christ. Then they would, much later, concentrate on helping the "other sheep" to find everlasting life. (John 10:16)

But the problem with that is, nothing about the 144k was mentioned in the letter....the number isn't mentioned and certainly the specifics of who is included in the select group isn't mentioned.

That is a lot of conjuncture there, pal.

The "new" heaven and earth are understood two ways. The immediate heavens around the earth will be cleansed of the Devil and his demons, and the earth that we are living on will be cleansed and refreshed and gradually turned into the Paradise that God intended from the beginning. The second way is that "heavens" are the way governments are referred to in Scripture, and the government of the earth will be one---Jesus' government, a very new development, and the new "earth" refers to the righteous people who remain on the earth (billions of them) and constitute a new kind of earthly citizenship---no evil people.

I am glad to see you acknowledge that it is open for interpretation.

Jesus is subject to his Father (I Corinthians 11:3) and this is just reiterated in I Corinthians 15. He always was subject, and always will be.

I dont want to split hairs, here; but you certainly can see my point

[JehovahsWitness]

When God's kingdom government does take control of the planet (earth), all human governments will be destroyed and the earth will at long last be the paradise-like "garden" God intended it to be (Dan 2:44; Mat 5:3).

Both those scriptures could be talking about the thousand year reign of Christ.

We believe they are. Under Christ, there will be a thousand year peaceful reign during which the earth will be returned to the paradise-like "garden" God intended it to be.







JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GOD'S KINGDOM , THE MILLENIUM and ... THE 144, 000

[JehovahsWitness]

Scripture states that there will be a new heaven and a new earth (Rev 21:1-3). I conclude that this new heaven/earth will be the same place.

Why?! The bible constantly distinguishes beween the two, so why do you conclude the two words refer to the same thing?

Rev 14:3 states that 144k were redeemed from earth, which more than likely means that God removed them from earth when they were sealed.

Where did he redeem them to? If they were originally on earth, where were they after this process?

However, Rev 21:2-3 states that God is coming DOWN from heaven to dwell with man...

Here you refer to two different locations ....heaven (where God formerly abided) and the earth from which the 144k were redeemed. Why then do you suggest the two places ( heaven and earth) are the same?









FURTHER READING What is God's Kingdom?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... s-kingdom/

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , THE PLANET EARTH and ... THE MILLENIUM

[Checkpoint]

How can a government be within someone? ...

I think it means, the King is in your mind, person knows in the mind the King and his will and wants to do it.

I asked you, how could a kingdom be in anyone's mind? Did you read Isaiah 9:6,7 and Daniel 2:44? Does that sound like God's Kingdom is just in someone's imagination?

Hello onewithhim.

I agree, the kingdom is not "just in someone's imagination". But neither is it just "a government".

To grasp what "the kingdom of Christ and of God"(Ephesians 5:5)is at any point, we must take note of and include OT prophecies such as the two you cited, the teachings and parables and prophecies of Jesus and his followers, and what is in Revelation.

These Scriptures cover many aspects of the kingdom. It us not a matter of "one size fits all", as it were.

What poster 1213 expressed could be a valid description of one way the kingdom government operates, couldn't it?

No. He said "the King is in your mind." In reality, the King is a very real Person---Jesus Christ---who will actually rule over the earth, as Isaiah and Daniel attest.

Well now, who is the king in God's kingdom? The Father, the Son, or both?

If this king, or these kings, are not in your mind, where on earth is he/are they? Somewhere in every real believer?

Yes, "In reality, the King is a very real Person---".

Are you saying that is only so in heaven, and in regard to him "who will actually rule over the earth"?

If not, please explain.

I feel like I'm in a room of mirrors, trying to understand what you're asking. I can't quite get it clear. I'll try to answer as plainly as possible. I see no complication in what I believe.

The King of God's Kingdom is Jesus Christ, the Son.

He is in heaven, at the Father's right hand.

He is a real person in heaven, and when on Earth. He is now in heaven and will rule from heaven over the earth.

O.K. Thanks for answering what you could.

Perhaps you could now attempt to answer these two observations/questions:

1). Does this king, Jesus Christ, the Son, now dwell in, make his home in, heaven only, or does he also dwell in, make his home in, his true believers on earth?

2). What is, now, God's temple on earth?

,,