You Are No Longer You!

[POI]

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment. Hence, you must have a portion of your freewill stripped from you (in some capacity).
2) You will not mourn for any of your loved ones, which do not also make it into Heaven; as Heaven has no mourning, as it is Heaven after all.

Which begs a follow up question....

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena. Humans are deemed perpetual sinners. Thus, if God must change all, for whom He elects, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

[POI]

“I finally am me! I am the me that is not controlled by alcohol. I am the me that I wanted to be even while I was drinking. I am not free to both drink and be the real me, so I choose freedom from alcohol.”

This is a false analogy though. Why? I'll demonstrate. Please pay attention to the modified words.

“I finally am me! I am the me that is not controlled by sin. I am the me that I wanted to be even while I was sinning. I am not free to both sin and be the real me, so I choose freedom from sin.

The Bible clearly states all will sin, regardless how hard they try not to.... Hence, upon your last breath, you are still deemed a sinner, in need of grace.

Thus, is such sin, any sin, still allowed in Heaven? If so, is this really Heaven?

This portion is also addressed to JW: If God wants a sinless environment, He could even allow for your continued free will all-the-same; but He may not allow for your free will choice to happen... (i.e.)

God tells you that you can pick any door. And you choose a door. But maybe the one you picked is locked

[JehovahsWitness]

This portion is also addressed to JW: If God wants a sinless environment, He could even allow for your continued free will all-the-same; but He may not allow for your free will choice to happen... (i.e.)

God tells you that you can pick any door. And you choose a door. But maybe the one you picked is locked

Well that may demonstrate the existence of free will (the ability to choose) but not the exercise of free will (the freedom to do what one has chosen). Do you think there are no other options?

It is a fallacy to presume a sinless environment can only exist by removing all moral choice, since it implies that it is impossible for a free moral agent to consistently make godly choices. At the very least it is biblically unsound since God himself is sinless but retains both the ability to make choices (ie the intellectual capacity to identify what a choice is) and the power to exercise his choices (which by definition he must have if he is omnipotent). In short God knows how to pick, he can always pick any door and he can choose to go through any door. He only ever chooses the green one.

Thus biblically, in one fell swoop this idiotic notion that free will and sinlessness cannot coexist is demolished.




JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Its not really "my" definition, just the standard meaning of the term. Anyway...I see you did not answer the question. May suggest you not try and preemptively raise objections based on an theology you cannot possible know if I hold to and simply answer the question.

You seem (correct me if I am wrong) to be suggesting the only way to a sinless environment is the removal of free will and my question is ... why?

This is your assumption. I stated:

"something would have to change, after your death, so you no long commit sin.

Yes, but why is that something the removal of free will?

[POI]

If God wants a sinless environment, He could even allow for your continued free will all-the-same; but He may not allow for your free will choice to happen... (i.e.)

God tells you that you can pick any door. And you choose a door. But maybe the one you picked is locked

Well that may demonstrate the existence of free will (the ability to choose) but not the exercise of free will (the freedom to do what one has chosen). Do you think there are no other options?

It is a fallacy to presume a sinless environment can only exist by removing all moral choice, since it implies that it is impossible for a free moral agent to consistently make godky choices. At the very least it is biblically unsound since God himself is sinless but retains both the ability to make choices (ie the intellectual capacity to identify what a choice is) and the power to exercise his choices (which by definition he must have if he is omnipotent).

Before I proceed, you are doing it again. I'll place the necessary questions here, yet again. Please stop ignoring my responses. I certainly am not ignoring yours.

1. Does God permit sin in Heaven?
2. If so, the same sins He permits here on earth?
3. Doesn't the Bible assert that we all sin?
4. If so, why call it Heaven, if nothing changes about the topic of continued acknowledged sin?

Now to your response....

You asked: "Do you think there are no other options?"

As I currently see it, we seem to have the following logical options available:

1. As you state, "God makes us into robots."
2. God changes us, so we no longer want to sin at all. You are no longer you. You still possess freewill, but would never choose sin.
3. Your freewill remains the same in Heaven, but God restricts/deflects/denies some of your wanted actions.
4. Nothing changes in Heaven, and your sinful nature continues in Heaven all-the-same

I'll stop here....

[JehovahsWitness]

As I currently see it, we seem to have the following logical options available:


2. God changes us, so we no longer want to sin at all. You are no longer you. You still possess freewill, but would never choose sin.

Okay lets examine this option shall we (kudos to you for opening up to think outside the box a little). What do you mea by "you are no longer you". It seems to me that you are falling into the trap of defining a person by their shortcomings. Bjs tried to examine this idea of "the real you" earlier : viewtopic.php?p=1047602#p1047602

An alcholic that chooses to live without his addiction? Who is he? What do you mean "you are no longer you" explain. Are you saying a person is entirely defined by their bad choices? That if they made better choices they would lose the essence of their personality? Are people the same at 12 as they are at 22 or 82? Maybe if you can better explain what you mean we can see if you have a valid point.


Many of us have been changed by God and yes, sins loses it appeal. Those of us that have come to our faith later in life have indeed been told "You're not the same person you were .... since youve found Jesus/Allah/Jehovah, its not the same" The question is of course which is the real you ? The one that went around drinking/whoring/swearing/fighting ...or whatever :choose uour poison. Or the one that now finds those things distasteful?





JW

[POI]

Its not really "my" definition, just the standard meaning of the term. Anyway...I see you did not answer the question. May suggest you not try and preemptively raise objections based on an theology you cannot possible know if I hold to and simply answer the question.

You seem (correct me if I am wrong) to be suggesting the only way to a sinless environment is the removal of free will and my question is ... why?

This is your assumption. I stated:

"something would have to change, after your death, so you no long commit sin.

Yes, but why is that something the removal of free will?

Maybe we first need to more-so unpack what YOU mean by 'freewill'? In this case, if it is limited to the ability to make choices, then logically, I can present a dichotomy:

A: God allows any free choice in Heaven
B: God {does not} allow any free choice in Heaven

Which one is it?

[POI]

As I currently see it, we seem to have the following logical options available:


2. God changes us, so we no longer want to sin at all. You are no longer you. You still possess freewill, but would never choose sin.

Okay lets examine this option shall we (kidos to you for opening up to think outside the box a little). What do you mea by "you are no longer you". It seems to me that you are falling into the trap of defkning a person by their shortcomings.

It's almost as if you are not ready my posts?

On earth, everyone sins, according to the Bible. Do you continue to sin in heaven or not?

If yes, why call it Heaven?
If no, what changed?

Furthermore, if Heaven is a place of total bliss, I would assume you do not mourn. Thus, if your closest loved one did not make it to Heaven, you would likely mourn their loss. If not, what changed?

[POI]

As I currently see it, we seem to have the following logical options available:


2. God changes us, so we no longer want to sin at all. You are no longer you. You still possess freewill, but would never choose sin.

Okay lets examine this option shall we (kudos to you for opening up to think outside the box a little). What do you mea by "you are no longer you". It seems to me that you are falling into the trap of defining a person by their shortcomings. Bjs tried to examine this idea of "the real you" earlier : viewtopic.php?p=1047602#p1047602

An alcholic that chooses to live without his addiction? Who is he? What do you mean "you are no longer you" explain. Are you saying a person is entirely defined by their bad choices? That if they made better choices they would lose the essence of their personality? Are people the same at 12 as they are at 22 or 82? Maybe if you can better explain what you mean we can see if you have a valid point.


Many of us have been changed by God and yes, sins loses it appeal. Those of us that have come to our faith later in life have indeed been told "You're not the same person you were .... since youve found Jesus/Allah/Jehovah, its not the same" The question is of course which is the real you ? The one that went around drinking/whoring/swearing/fighting ...or whatever :choose uour poison. Or the one that now finds those things distasteful?





JW

Yet again, the Bible states you cannot be without sin, no matter what you do. Hence, what changes in Heaven? Or, do you continue to sin there too?

Are you going to continue ignoring my (4) questions?

[JehovahsWitness]

It's almost as if you are not ready my posts?

I'm sorry if you find it frustrating, I am reading your posts but I'm just picking the bits that I find interesting.

Why? Because I'm sure you are already familiar with the very elimentary notion that humans are imperfect because of the original sin and the effects of that will be removed one day thanks to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. I see nothing interesting in discussing something everyone even a little bit familiar with Christianity can explain.

But I do find this idea that the only way God can hope individals to be moral is by removing their free will, somewhat novel.


Still since you ask so nicely....

Yet again, the Bible states you cannot be without sin, no matter what you do. ...

"You" as in who? Any human? Any spirit? Anyone that has ever or will ever exist anywhere ? I tend to ignore evident strawmen arguments built on an inability to contextualise. The bible does not indicate it is impossible for any intelligent being to live a sinnless life. That is a complete fallacy.

The rest is gravy.






JW

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To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SIN , PERFECTION and ... THE ORIGINAL SIN

[POI]

I'm sure you are familiar with the very elimentary notion that humans are imperfect because of the original sin and the effects of that will be removed one day thanks to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. I see nothing interesting in discussing something everyone even a little bit familiar with Christianity can explain.

Kool. So you too now admit that you are no longer you, in Heaven, great --- (ala: your response above in bold). Thanks for playing.

Hence, my followup OP question...

Why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

But I do find this idea that the only way God can hope individals to be moral is by removing their free will, somewhat novel.

I gave (4) options, for which you ignored.

The bible does not indicate it is impossible for any intelligent being to live a sinnless life. That is a complete fallacy.

Um, yes it does.

"As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one"