You Are No Longer You!

[POI]

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment. Hence, you must have a portion of your freewill stripped from you (in some capacity).
2) You will not mourn for any of your loved ones, which do not also make it into Heaven; as Heaven has no mourning, as it is Heaven after all.

Which begs a follow up question....

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena. Humans are deemed perpetual sinners. Thus, if God must change all, for whom He elects, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

[JehovahsWitness]

2). Also, why not just create this end-result environment from the get-go?

I would anwser your question but ....

We really don't want to have to start shouting 'derail!'.

JW

[bjs1]

“I finally am me! I am the me that is not controlled by alcohol. I am the me that I wanted to be even while I was drinking. I am not free to both drink and be the real me, so I choose freedom from alcohol.”

This is a false analogy though. Why? I'll demonstrate. Please pay attention to the modified words.

“I finally am me! I am the me that is not controlled by sin. I am the me that I wanted to be even while I was sinning. I am not free to both sin and be the real me, so I choose freedom from sin.

Yes, that is the basic analogy I was using.

The Bible clearly states all will sin, regardless how hard they try not to.... Hence, upon your last breath, you are still deemed a sinner, in need of grace.

Close enough that I won’t squabble about it.

Thus, is such sin, any sin, still allowed in Heaven? If so, is this really Heaven?

Hence the analogy of the former alcoholic who no longer drinks. He has chosen to stop drinking. He did not achieve this solely on his own, but received assistance in the form of a 12-step program that would involve many people. The person in Heaven in this case has chosen the opportunity, by the grace of God, to be free from sin.

This portion is also addressed to JW: If God wants a sinless environment, He could even allow for your continued free will all-the-same; but He may not allow for your free will choice to happen... (i.e.)

Which is the same as having no free will at all. If you cannot choose to do something other than what is good, then you cannot genuinely choose good. In that case, it was only God who could make the choice.

God tells you that you can pick any door. And you choose a door. But maybe the one you picked is locked

I have no idea what you mean here. Within orthodox Christianity there is no equivalent to God telling you to pick any door.

[JehovahsWitness]

...the topic, which is about whether you remain yourself if you are celestially sand - blasted so as to be fit to be in heaven.

What exactly do you mean by "celestially sand - blasted " ?

• Do you mean stripped of their free will (as in the capacity to intellectually grasp the notion of choice)?

• Or do you mean freed from harmful additictions and negative behaviours allowing them to be the best expressions of their true selves?

• By by "celestially sand - blasted " do you mean : stripped of what makes them free moral agents, intelligent self-governing individuals?

• Or based on the premise that we are defined by our bad choices weaknesses and addictions, by "celestially sand - blasted " do you mean reduced to nothing more than mindless blobs /automats or robots since without our weaknesses and faults intelligent individuals are nothing at all?

If you "sandblast" a wall, you may remove its imperfections but it still remains the same wall. I am confused as to how you would apply this notion to an individual resurrected to heavenly life so I'll need clarification on what you are asking before I can attempt to answer the question,




JW

[POI]

“I finally am me! I am the me that is not controlled by alcohol. I am the me that I wanted to be even while I was drinking. I am not free to both drink and be the real me, so I choose freedom from alcohol.”

This is a false analogy though. Why? I'll demonstrate. Please pay attention to the modified words.

“I finally am me! I am the me that is not controlled by sin. I am the me that I wanted to be even while I was sinning. I am not free to both sin and be the real me, so I choose freedom from sin.

Yes, that is the basic analogy I was using.

Then your analogy is patently false. Your analogy involves ONE kind of sin, my analogy involves ALL sin

A rapist can decide to no longer rape; one kind of sin. But he is still a sinner.

God tells you that you can pick any door. And you choose a door. But maybe the one you picked is locked

I have no idea what you mean here. Within orthodox Christianity there is no equivalent to God telling you to pick any door.

Let me elaborate... A thief has the free will to steal from someone. But maybe God stopped him. People pray all the time for God to do this or that. One could effectively argue 'freewill' here. If God stops a deemed 'bad' action, per petitionary or intercessory request, is God messing with the thief's freewill?

You can have complete "freewill" in Heaven. God just blocks all actions He deems bad.

So why not just allow all into Heaven, since we are all confirmed sinners?

[brunumb]

If person is righteous, he doesn’t sin.

But aren't we told that all people sin and that there are none that are righteous?

I the scripture has been misunderstood. If it would be so that no one is righteous, no one would get the eternal life, because eternal life is promised in the Bible only for righteous.

No. What you are really saying is that the Bible is wrong.

[brunumb]

If you cannot choose to do something other than what is good, then you cannot genuinely choose good.

Deeming something as good is very subjective. But that aside, where is the problem in not being able to carry out actions that are demonstrably bad? If a person lives in such a way that they never decide to do anything bad, how can they know that it is purely their free will choice, or if they have been prevented from making that decision? If it is not possible to determine that it is the latter, what is the problem?

[TRANSPONDER]

...the topic, which is about whether you remain yourself if you are celestially sand - blasted so as to be fit to be in heaven.

What exactly do you mean by "celestially sand - blasted " ?

• Do you mean stripped of their free will (as in the capacity to intellectually grasp the notion of choice)?

• Or do you mean freed from harmful additictions and negative behaviours allowing them to be the best expressions of their true selves?

• By by "celestially sand - blasted " do you mean : stripped of what makes them free moral agents, intelligent self-governing individuals?

• Or based on the premise that we are defined by our bad choices weaknesses and addictions, by "celestially sand - blasted " do you mean reduced to nothing more than mindless blobs /automats or robots since without our weaknesses and faults intelligent individuals are nothing at all?

If you "sandblast" a wall, you may remove its imperfections but it still remains the same wall. I am confused as to how you would apply this notion to an individual resurrected to heavenly life so I'll need clarification on what you are asking before I can attempt to answer the question,




JW

Don't take the simile too literally. I had in mind more Paul's simile of the fire burning out all imperfections, rather like converting iron to steel, so that it's without any flaws of sin.

The point being - what is left of everything that made one human and gave their identity?

[JehovahsWitness]

I had in mind more Paul's simile of the fire burning out all imperfections, rather like converting iron to steel, so that it's without any flaws of sin.

The point being - what is left of everything that made one human and gave their identity?

Can you provide the reference ? I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation and application of Paul's (?) words and will need to check the context.


Thanks


JW

[TRANSPONDER]

I had in mind more Paul's simile of the fire burning out all imperfections, rather like converting iron to steel, so that it's without any flaws of sin.

The point being - what is left of everything that made one human and gave their identity?

Can you provide the reference ? I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation and application of Paul's (?) words and will need to check the context.


Thanks


JW

I cor. 3. 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This does require some interpretation, not least because today's Christian theology adapts Paul's beliefs (which were Jewish -Pharisee) to current Christian Dogma. But the image here is of the works of a believer if they are not up the heavenly standard being burned out so the soul is fit to be saved. The question then is whether so much has to be burned away that nothing of what makes a human what they are is left.

You may well have a different interpretation.

[JehovahsWitness]

Can you provide the reference ? I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation and application of Paul's (?) words and will need to check the context.


Thanks


JW

I cor. 3. 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This does require some interpretation .... the image here is of the works of a believer if they are not up the heavenly standard being burned out so the soul is fit to be saved. ....

Okay, so your interpretation is that when Paul refers to " work" he is refering to the past action of a believer? That is what I take it you think ... but I'm confused as to what you think is burnt ... their past actions? Them? And what you think is represented by the fire ("being burnt out") ... death? Hell? You mention a persons "soul" , where doe that fit in? I'm finding your explanation somewhat confusing.

Soul = believer
Works = past actions (?)
Fire = ?
Burned = ?

I cannot say whether or not I agree with the premise of your question if I cannot understand it. Perhaps you can rephrase...


JW