Why believe in God at all?

[nobspeople]

The obvious, selfish answer is 'to get into heaven'. But why else? Why should one believe in god? A god that plays aloof, many times allows the bed to prosper while the good suffer; a god that can create the whole of everything yet needs your money for his churches and spreading his word; a god that allowed the whole species to fall into sin right off the bat; a god that required himself/his son/himself to live and 'die' as a sacrifice to cover the sins of his creation - sins which he allowed; a god that allows 'wolves' into his flock to guide his 'sheep'; a god that won't allow himself to be proven and, instead, relies on faith - faith of flawed creatures - then allows eternal damnation (again, according to some) for not having enough faith; a god that allows his own disciples to argue amongst themselves over, many times, small, ambiguous things; a god that couldn't even write his own story; a god that seems to favor some over others; a god that can't be fully understood. And so on.
What benefits, outside of heaven, does God give that no one or nothing else gives?

[POI]

...They fear going to hell, yourself included....

Why do you think I fear hell?

You feared hell at one point, otherwise you wouldn't have become a christian.

I think I have been a Christian as long as I can remember. But, maybe this also depends on how Christian is defined. In Bible Christian means a disciple of Jesus. And a disciple of Jesus is a person who is baptized as Jesus taught.

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

I think I was baptized almost right after I was born.

I don’t think I have ever feared hell.

Sounds to me that the reason you believe in god at all, is largely due to early and continued indoctrination. And now, it is such a deep seeded core belief, virtually nothing anyone could say, could ever shake your faith. You likely did not initially reason yourself into this faith. It was taught to you by the ones you trust. And was likely reinforced further by many more you trust. Thus, it would make sense you cannot now be reasoned out of it. Nothing can shake your faith.

Early indoctrination, followed by years of repeated reinforcements, now renders your core belief. Letting go of such would be virtually impossible for you. Just like the millions who have been indoctrinated into any other opposing god belief...

[nobspeople]

...They fear going to hell, yourself included....

Why do you think I fear hell?

You feared hell at one point, otherwise you wouldn't have become a christian.

I think I have been a Christian as long as I can remember. But, maybe this also depends on how Christian is defined. In Bible Christian means a disciple of Jesus. And a disciple of Jesus is a person who is baptized as Jesus taught.

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

I think I was baptized almost right after I was born.

I don’t think I have ever feared hell.

Sounds to me that the reason you believe in god at all, is largely due to early and continued indoctrination. And now, it is such a deep seeded core belief, virtually nothing anyone could say, could ever shake your faith. You likely did not initially reason yourself into this faith. It was taught to you by the ones you trust. And was likely reinforced further by many more you trust. Thus, it would make sense you cannot now be reasoned out of it. Nothing can shake your faith.

Early indoctrination, followed by years of repeated reinforcements, now renders your core belief. Letting go of such would be virtually impossible for you. Just like the millions who have been indoctrinated into any other opposing god belief...

Sounds a bit like phobia indoctrination.
Phobia indoctrination is the process by which leaders install irrational fears in followers about the dangers of leaving the group or questioning a leader's authority. Children and teens are especially vulnerable to phobia indoctrination because their brain is still developing, but adults are also susceptible as well.
Steven Hassan, the author of Releasing the Bonds and an expert on mind control, calls phobia indoctrination “the most powerful technique for emotional control.” Hassan further asserts, “If a person’s emotions are successfully brought under the group’s control, their thoughts and behavior will follow.”
https://postmormoncoaching.com/blog/lds ... trination/
See also
Childhood Indoctrination in Fundamentalist Christianity
https://journeyfree.org/childhood-relig ... trination/
"The fact that parents go along with churches inducting toddlers into the belief system and programs for preverbal children are readily available only indicates the depth of internalized fear and anxiety that would ignore such a blatant contradiction...the teaching that one is unable to trust one’s own thoughts, and the abject fear of terrifying consequences..."

Yeah. No fear involved at all

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #18]

3. A living hope: Only through God can one have a sure hope this our planet paradise earth will very soon be free from sickness, death, war, climate damage, terrorism and hatred...

This would certainly be a good thing, but can you define "soon"? To date (and long before any organized religions came along) planet Earth has experienced all of these things after our genus Homo appeared some 2-3 million years ago (except for climate change which is much more recent, and possibly terrorism although who knows if one group of Homo erectus terrorized another group).

What indications are there that this will change at any point in the future given that we've never managed to do anything about it for thousands of years? I suppose that might depend on your definition of soon. Is that so arbitrary that it could include a time far into the future where Homo sapiens are extinct (by whatever mechanism might cause that ... eg. climate change to pick one from your list)? Or is it a much shorter time frame where humans are likely to still be thriving on Earth? There is certainly no indication now that things are moving in a direction where these bad things are going to stop happening.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #18]

3. A living hope: Only through God can one have a sure hope this our planet paradise earth will very soon be free from sickness, death, war, climate damage, terrorism and hatred...

This would certainly be a good thing, but can you define "soon"?

Soon as in within the lifetime of the present "generation".

There is certainly no indication now that things are moving in a direction where these bad things are going to stop happening.

Biblically there is.



JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE GENTILE TIMES , THE LAST DAYS and ...THE SECOND COMING *

*The Return of Christ

[1213]

... It was taught to you by the ones you trust. And was likely reinforced further by many more you trust. Thus, it would make sense you cannot now be reasoned out of it. Nothing can shake your faith....

To reason me out, would require intelligent arguments that could show your point valid. It doesn’t work by imagining reality to be what you wish or expect.

But, interesting thing is, I think no human has really taught Christianity to me originally. I learned it by reading the Bible, because I wanted to know what it tells.

[1213]

...
I would challenge that last assertion as, without fear, there's no need to 'go with God' as there's nothing God can be shown to offer more than freedom from heaven.
Even for 'as long as' you can remember, your parents and or church leaders instilled fear in you of hell. Otherwise, there's no need to 'go with God' as there's nothing God can be shown to offer more than freedom from heaven.

Firstly, heaven or eternal life can’t be earned. Even if I would fear it, there is nothing I could do to prevent it. Secondly, Bible tells basically that hell is for cowards:

But the fearful, … …shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev. 21:8

If person “goes with God” because of fear, he should learn what the Bible tells, otherwise there is probably a big disappointment in the end.

My reason to go with God is that I think God is good, I want to be loyal to him, because his teachings and will is good. Obviously, if I would reject Him, I think I would also lose a lot, but I think my reason is love, not fear, to go with God.

[POI]

... It was taught to you by the ones you trust. And was likely reinforced further by many more you trust. Thus, it would make sense you cannot now be reasoned out of it. Nothing can shake your faith....

To reason me out, would require intelligent arguments that could show your point valid.

I've already done that. Cough cough, the topics "Faith Healing" and "slavery" come to mind, just for starters. For which you have all but abandoned.

It doesn’t work by imagining reality to be what you wish or expect.

Reality seems to be that if such a god exists, He would answer prayer. The fact that He skips any/all amputees, CP, and down's syndrome, suggests that He either cares not to address these three categories, or does not exist. Which is in stark contrast to the many Verses laid out in the Bible.

Reality is also that you must accept a contradiction. If God instructs that He loves his creation, then why not just abolish lifetime slavery? Instead, He instructs how to do it, for life. I, myself, contend that all such Verse is merely man-made alone; how about you?

But, interesting thing is, I think no human has really taught Christianity to me originally. I learned it by reading the Bible, because I wanted to know what it tells.

So I can ignore what you stated prior? "I think I have been a Christian as long as I can remember."

Your first memory was stumbling across a Bible, picking it up, and reading it? Interesting...

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #25]

Soon as in within the lifetime of the present "generation".

I found this link regarding JWs and the term "generations":

https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/generation.php

This looks like another example of a prediction not panning out and various reinterpretations are created to explain why, or extend the time period. But of course this whole "second coming of Jesus" thing has been predicted by other sects of Christianity for many centuries and never materialized. It is puzzling to me why anyone in modern times still believes these kinds of things given the dismal record of religious predictions of all kinds (and the truly far-fetched nature of some of the predictions, not just from Christianity).

Biblically there is.

How so? Many of the biblical predictions are much like Nostradomus's predictions in that they are worded so vaguely or are so generic they can be interpreted to mean just about anything. Statements such as that in the "end times" there will be pestilence, food shortages, earthquakes, etc. are meaningless because we have these things now and had them in the past, in one location or another, and this will most likely continue.

None of us will be around in 500 years to see where humanity is at the time, but it seems highly unlikely that some kind of armageddon style event is on the horizon if the only predictor is a holy book with a poor track record of predicting things.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

What benefits, outside of heaven, does God give that no one or nothing else gives?

One common thing I've encountered in debating religious people over the years and asking why they believe that gods exist, is that they feel a god or a creator is needed to justify the position that humans are special and are here for a reason. That there is a purpose for our existence beyond just having evolved from earlier primates. They cannot accept that a branch of creatures developed a large, complex and capable brain well beyond any other living things (so far), and opposable thumbs (among other things), and that these evolutionary developments are what has allowed us to accomplish what we have as humans in comparison to all other animals.

Humans are a very recent member of the animal kingdom, appearing after nearly 4 billion years of life with about 1 billion of that including multicellular life, 180 million years of mammals, and 55 million years of primates. The earliest Homo sapien fossils discovered so far (in Morocco) are only about 0.3 million years old, the first human civilizations appeared around 10,000 years ago, and organized written language had to wait another roughly 5000 more years to about 5200 years ago when cuneiform scripts appeared. The most popular monotheist religious texts and associated religions are only about 3000 years old or less (Islam only 1400 years old).

How are humans "special" creations within this life on Earth scenario and timeline, and why did it take so long for us to appear? Evolution answers the latter question very well, but the former seems to require belief in a god being as a creator who decided only recently to place us on this planet. So for those who have a need to believe that humans are special and are here for a higher purpose, a god being provides that benefit.

[brunumb]

To reason me out, would require intelligent arguments that could show your point valid. It doesn’t work by imagining reality to be what you wish or expect.

I believe that it is more likely that you would staunchly defend your belief rather than critically examine what is presented to you. The book below discusses this particular issue.

Julia Galef — The Scout Mindset: Why Some People See Things Clearly and Others Don’t

When it comes to what we believe, humans see what they want to see. We have what Julia Galef calls a “soldier” mindset: a drive to defend the ideas we most want to believe — and shoot down those we don’t. But if we want to get things right more often, argues Galef, we should train ourselves to have a “scout” mindset. Unlike the soldier, a scout’s goal isn’t to defend one side over the other. It’s to go out, survey the territory, and come back with as accurate a map as possible. Regardless of what they hope to be the case, above all, the scout wants to know what’s actually true. In The Scout Mindset, Galef explores why our brains deceive us and what we can do to change the way we think.

You can listen to the author in discussion with Michael Shermer about her book here:
https://www.skeptic.com/michael-shermer ... 1ba6e4a581