#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[onewithhim]

God made humans in his image in that we have the same attributes that he has---love, power, wisdom and justice. Man has qualities reflecting those of his Maker, qualities that positively distinguish man from the animal creation.

Well, yes and no. The word 'reflecting' is very important in your assertion, as I think you agree; we are yet sinners (whereas God, of course, is not), and that means everything about us is tainted with sin. One day this will no longer be the case.

Grace and peace to all.

That is true. Humans will start becoming perfect during the Millennial Reign of Christ. We will have 1,000 years to achieve perfection, and then we will "come alive," truly, then being able to live forever (after the final test by Satan).

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #241]

That is true. Humans will start becoming perfect during the Millennial Reign of Christ. We will have 1,000 years to achieve perfection, and then we will "come alive," truly, then being able to live forever (after the final test by Satan)

What you say here is not true to Scripture, although it is true to the present day JW belief.

No one can "achieve perfection", in a thousand years; or in a million years.

That is not the way to "come alive". It is not the way to become "able to live forever".

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #241]

That is true. Humans will start becoming perfect during the Millennial Reign of Christ. We will have 1,000 years to achieve perfection, and then we will "come alive," truly, then being able to live forever (after the final test by Satan)

What you say here is not true to Scripture, although it is true to the present day JW belief.

No one can "achieve perfection", in a thousand years; or in a million years.

That is not the way to "come alive". It is not the way to become "able to live forever".

Oh but it is. We will all achieve the state of perfection comparable to what Adam had. Of course, after we are perfect we must stand on Jehovah's and Jesus' side and refuse to follow Satan when he is let out of the "abyss." After this final test we all will have come alive---geared to live forever, because we remained faithful to God.

[PinSeeker]

God made humans in his image in that we have the same attributes that he has---love, power, wisdom and justice. Man has qualities reflecting those of his Maker, qualities that positively distinguish man from the animal creation.

Well, yes and no. The word 'reflecting' is very important in your assertion, as I think you agree; we are yet sinners (whereas God, of course, is not), and that means everything about us is tainted with sin. One day this will no longer be the case.

Grace and peace to all.

That is true. Humans will start becoming perfect during the Millennial Reign of Christ. We will have 1,000 years to achieve perfection, and then we will "come alive," truly, then being able to live forever (after the final test by Satan).

We are being made holy (more and more like Jesus) in this life, now, by the power of the Holy Spirit, by Whom God is at work in us. In the works we do, we do the willing and working, of course, but it is God at work in us to do so to His good pleasure. This is Philippians 2:13. This is the lifelong process of sanctification. We will never be perfect ~ glorified ~ in this life, but God, Who began this good work in us, will bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). The "thousand years" is going on right now.

Grace and peace to you!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #240]

That is true. Humans will start becoming perfect during the Millennial Reign of Christ. We will have 1,000 years to achieve perfection, and then we will "come alive," truly, then being able to live forever (after the final test by Satan)

What you say here is not true to Scripture, although it is true to the present day JW belief.

No one can "achieve perfection", in a thousand years; or in a million years.

That is not the way to "come alive". It is not the way to become "able to live forever".

Oh but it is. We will all achieve the state of perfection comparable to what Adam had. Of course, after we are perfect we must stand on Jehovah's and Jesus' side and refuse to follow Satan when he is let out of the "abyss." After this final test we all will have come alive---geared to live forever, because we remained faithful to God.

You have simply said the same thing in that reply.

However many times this is done, it does not make it into truth that is to be believed.

Just recently you wrote about a certain "mindset". That can entrap any or all of us, if we allow it to.

Scripture is quite clear. You know where verses are and what they say.

They tell us this now is the day of salvation; it is this lifetime; it is before the return of Jesus.

That will be when we all will be tested, at what happens after death: the judgment. If we have endured to the end, we will be saved.

[onewithhim]

God made humans in his image in that we have the same attributes that he has---love, power, wisdom and justice. Man has qualities reflecting those of his Maker, qualities that positively distinguish man from the animal creation.

Well, yes and no. The word 'reflecting' is very important in your assertion, as I think you agree; we are yet sinners (whereas God, of course, is not), and that means everything about us is tainted with sin. One day this will no longer be the case.

Grace and peace to all.

That is true. Humans will start becoming perfect during the Millennial Reign of Christ. We will have 1,000 years to achieve perfection, and then we will "come alive," truly, then being able to live forever (after the final test by Satan).

We are being made holy (more and more like Jesus) in this life, now, by the power of the Holy Spirit, by Whom God is at work in us. In the works we do, we do the willing and working, of course, but it is God at work in us to do so to His good pleasure. This is Philippians 2:13. This is the lifelong process of sanctification. We will never be perfect ~ glorified ~ in this life, but God, Who began this good work in us, will bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). The "thousand years" is going on right now.

Grace and peace to you!

As you said.....We cannot be truly holy in this system of things, though we can be relatively holy, as per our present imperfect and sinful state. We will be made perfect and our sins vanquished in the new system, per Jesus' redemption sacrifice. The Thousand Years could not be going on right now. Before they start Satan is "abyssed".....figuratively chained up so that he can't do anything to people or the planet. He has not been abyssed yet. AFTER he is, the Millennial Reign starts. (See Revelation 20:1-3.)

[PinSeeker]

...though we can be relatively holy, as per our present imperfect and sinful state.

Well, we can certainly strive for holiness. But alas, yes, we are sinners. Someday, no more.

The Thousand Years could not be going on right now. Before they start Satan is "abyssed".....figuratively chained up so that he can't do anything to people or the planet.

It could, and it is. Satan is bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed; he is no longer able to deceive the nations (Revelation 20:3). Premillennialists and some postmillennialists wrongly associate this event with the coming of an extraordinary future era of peace and prosperity, contrasting with the present (1 Thess. 2:18; 1 Pet. 5:8). The binding of Satan has already taken place through Christ’s death and resurrection:

• "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out." (John 12:31)

• "He (God the Father) disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in Him (Christ, God the Son)." (Colossians 2:15)

• "And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world ~ he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, 'Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God." (Revelation 12:9-10)

• "But if it is by the Spirit of God that I (Jesus) cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." (Matthew 12:28-29).

The present spread of the gospel to the nations, as initiated in Acts, is the result of a restriction on Satan’s power to deceive.

AFTER he is, the Millennial Reign starts. (See Revelation 20:1-3.)

Exactly. See above.

Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

...though we can be relatively holy, as per our present imperfect and sinful state.

Well, we can certainly strive for holiness. But alas, yes, we are sinners. Someday, no more.

The Thousand Years could not be going on right now. Before they start Satan is "abyssed".....figuratively chained up so that he can't do anything to people or the planet.

It could, and it is. Satan is bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed; he is no longer able to deceive the nations (Revelation 20:3). Premillennialists and some postmillennialists wrongly associate this event with the coming of an extraordinary future era of peace and prosperity, contrasting with the present (1 Thess. 2:18; 1 Pet. 5:8). The binding of Satan has already taken place through Christ’s death and resurrection:

• "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out." (John 12:31)

• "He (God the Father) disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in Him (Christ, God the Son)." (Colossians 2:15)

• "And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world ~ he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, 'Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God." (Revelation 12:9-10)

• "But if it is by the Spirit of God that I (Jesus) cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." (Matthew 12:28-29).

The present spread of the gospel to the nations, as initiated in Acts, is the result of a restriction on Satan’s power to deceive.

AFTER he is, the Millennial Reign starts. (See Revelation 20:1-3.)

Exactly. See above.

Grace and peace to you.

I beg to differ. Satan is as active as ever. He is very much active in the religions of the world that are still operating, and in governmental affairs of the nations. If you think God is directing the nations at this point, you have a sad view of Him. Satan is still strongly deceiving the world, even while Christ is directing the preaching of the Good News of the Kingdom in all the inhabited Earth (Matt.24:14). The nations are trying to thwart this preaching work, and they would not be doing that if Satan was in the abyss.

[PinSeeker]

I beg to differ.

Of course you do.

Satan is as active as ever.

Yes and no. He is constrained ~ bound ~ from deceiving the nations. Individuals are another story, but that's totally beside the point. Satan cannot stop the spread of the Gospel to the nations. He cannot. This is precisely why Jesus issued the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-20, to "(g)o therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that (He) commanded (us)"... promising that "(He is ) with (us) always, even to the end of the age."

He is very much active in the religions of the world that are still operating, and in governmental affairs of the nations. If you think God is directing the nations at this point, you have a sad view of Him.

These two statements are totally off the subject. I'll only say that Christ King and Lord of the nations (Revelation 15:3). We're talking about the Gospel and it's spread, not sin in general. At least I am. And Scripture. Well, in the opposite order.

Satan is still strongly deceiving the world...

Yes, but he can no longer ~ since the coming of Christ ~ stop the spread of the Gospel to all nations... he can no longer deceive the nations. Satan, the "strong man" of Matthew 12:29, is indeed bound ("abyssed") in this way. Now, near the end, he will be loosed for a short time...

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

Satan is as active as ever.

Satan cannot stop the spread of the Gospel to the nations. He cannot.

He already has!!

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die."

Mainstream Christian theologians have incorporated Satan's lie into their theologies for nearly two thousand years!

Most Christian theologians teach that mankind has an immortal part which cannot die.

Therefore, they cannot believe the scriptures as written because the scriptures repeatedly state that mankind will die.

Thus they are forced to interpret the word death to be something other than death as stated in the scripture!

So with five little words, Satan sealed the scriptures from their understanding.

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. (Isaiah 29:11-12)

They may not be able to understand the words until the end of time:

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. (Daniel 12:9)

Now you know.