You Are No Longer You!

[POI]

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment. Hence, you must have a portion of your freewill stripped from you (in some capacity).
2) You will not mourn for any of your loved ones, which do not also make it into Heaven; as Heaven has no mourning, as it is Heaven after all.

Which begs a follow up question....

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena. Humans are deemed perpetual sinners. Thus, if God must change all, for whom He elects, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you saying, in a coy, passive aggressive way, that POI isn't intelligent and or have an intelligent and inquisitive mind? Is this a way of getting around the rule #1: "Personal attacks of any sort are not allowed. Comments about any person that are negative, condescending, frivolous or indicate in any way a lack of respect are not allowed."?

Fair enough. I apologise and will delete the last paragraph so as not to causs offense.

We use critical thinking skills, so no biblical fact stands alone without significance. If Jesus managed to be born a human without sin, the logical question is: "how could that be?" The anwser to that question must be linked to HOW people become sinners. Its asking these intelligent questions, the questions that seek the reasons WHY things are the way they are, that helps us see the significants of biblical details.

In my experience, there is ALWAYS an anwser when we ask regarding a bible detail "... so WHAT!"



JW

[TRANSPONDER]

... even if I were to state, from the jump, that "all earthly humans, besides Jesus, are sinners". Or, whatever technical form you would find suitable, then WHAT?

Well then someone with critical thinking skills would logically ask (this is where the skill comes in ..) , "if one acknowledges "all earthly humans, besides Jesus, are sinners" - what was different about the human Jesus ?". This would lead an intelligent person on an search for relevant scriptures and via that, would this thinking person would be in a position to use scripture and intelligence to better understand the biblical view of sin and humans. Not least to resolve the question as to if it is possible to be a human and without sin. And from there to springboard to the question whether one can retain ones individuality as a free moral agent yet be without sin (human or not).

Jesus is the key to understanding not only the OP but the very nature of sin and perfection so biblically acknowledgjng that "all earthly humans, besides Jesus, are sinners" is the first clue to finding the anwser to the question in OP of this thread.


I hope that answered your question,


JW

It seems to me that this was a very neat way of changing the subject. The topic is not about whether Jesus was sinless or not. and the argument was aout God dealing with a humanity that was mostly, if not entirely sinful.

as below...brunumb wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:18 am
1213 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:50 pm
brunumb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:56 pm
1213 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:12 pm
If person is righteous, he doesn’t sin.
But aren't we told that all people sin and that there are none that are righteous?
I the scripture has been misunderstood. If it would be so that no one is righteous, no one would get the eternal life, because eternal life is promised in the Bible only for righteous.
No. What you are really saying is that the Bible is wrong.
You are disputing no one being righteous as stated in the Bible by putting it down to misinterpretation. Your argument is that eternal life is promised in the Bible only for righteous and therefore there must be righteous people. But, just because it is promised for the righteous does not necessitate that anyone will be. It is effectively an empty promise. If the Bible says no one is righteous and you claim that there are righteous, then you are saying the Bible is wrong. If the Bible can't be wrong, then you must be wrong. Your solution is to clearly explain how the Bible has been misinterpreted on this point.quote=JehovahsWitness post_id=1047878 time=1629803108 user_id=6111]

Okay, then let's start over anew....

God states all are sinners. No one is without sin.

FALSE: God is without sin. Jesus is without sin.



JW





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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p970361

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viewtopic.php?p=943655#p943655

Ok on a technicality (fsoa) "Jesus was the only human who didn't sin. Can we get back to the point?" is the response, not getting into a discussion about Jesus' sinlessness and suggestions that we search the Bible for passages of praise about Jesus, having lost sight of the discussion.

I suggest we don't let him get away with it. Even having to apologise and delete a paragraph is a win for him, if he has managed a derail from 'at least talking about humans and their getting into heaven. Reel him in.

[JehovahsWitness]

It seems to me that this was a very neat way of changing the subject.

I disagree. Firstly I am answering a direct question. If you feel the question is irrelevant you should point that out to POI who asked it, not to me for answering.

... even if I were to state, from the jump, that "all earthly humans, besides Jesus, are sinners". Or, whatever technical form you would find suitable, then WHAT?

Further, whether he knows it or not the answsr to the question is directly related to the OP. See above.
viewtopic.php?p=1047936#p1047936




JW

[Purple Knight]

Well then someone with critical thinking skills would logically ask (this is where the skill comes in ..) , "if one acknowledges "all earthly humans, besides Jesus, are sinners" - what was different about the human Jesus ?". This would lead an intelligent person on an search for relevant scriptures and via that, would this thinking person would be in a position to use scripture and intelligence to better understand the biblical view of sin and humans. Not least to resolve the question as to if it is possible to be a human and without sin. And from there to springboard to the question whether one can retain ones individuality as a free moral agent yet be without sin (human or not).

I actually think this is fair, and my answer to the question would be, you would have to choose to be otherwise. This is my answer to the age-old question of the rebuilt ship, gradually replaced with parts from another ship until it is entirely the other ship. My snarky answer to my philosophy professor was that it's the new ship because every part was replaced, including the nameplate.

But that was a definitional answer. The real answer, I think, is that it doesn't matter whether the ship is the Enterprise-D or the Yosemite because it's just a ship. It doesn't have an identity but what we assign to it.

But a person? Well that does matter. You can't just take me out of my seat and plop down another person and claim he's me. But if I say, I don't want this particular bit of me, this is a tumour, cut it out, well, if I made the choice, then perhaps there's enough of a connection there, even if that tumour is in my brain and influences my consciousness. If somebody else removes or alters my consciousness against my will, I might not still be me. If I ask, or do it myself, then perhaps.

[2ndpillar2]

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment. Hence, you must have a portion of your freewill stripped from you (in some capacity).
2) You will not mourn for any of your loved ones, which do not also make it into Heaven; as Heaven has no mourning, as it is Heaven after all.

Which begs a follow up question....

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena. Humans are deemed perpetual sinners. Thus, if God must change all, for whom He elects, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

Your ideal heaven seems to be among the sorcerers, the immoral, the murderers, the liars who will not get into the gate of Jerusalem during the millennium (Revelation 22:15). If you make it through Har-Magedon, then you will have your chance to stay outside the gates. (Revelation 16:16). Now as for the kingdom of heaven, in the right now, which is to enter into life, that requires that one keeps the commandments (Matthew 19:16-17). If you love your sins, then you have the free will to hold on to them. Just don't expect a hunky dory life in the now, nor in the future. If those you love are murderers and liars, then maybe you could learn to live without them. Of course that is for those who actually enter into heaven, in the hear and now. One's spiritual family is not one of blood, but of spirit. Light abhors darkness. Or you could become a Muslim, and like the Catholics, simply pay for your sins in cash, such as the Quran says, loan money to Allah to get your sins forgiven, and with respect to the Muslims, simply cut the head off an infidel, who would dare mock MHMD, and get 72 virgins/dates/raisins. Or you could become a pagan, and howl at the moon. I am sure that would get you a raise at work at least.

[POI]

... even if I were to state, from the jump, that "all earthly humans, besides Jesus, are sinners". Or, whatever technical form you would find suitable, then WHAT?

Well then someone with critical thinking skills would logically ask (this is where the skill comes in ..) , "if one acknowledges "all earthly humans, besides Jesus, are sinners" - what was different about the human Jesus ?". This would lead an intelligent person on an search for relevant scriptures and via that, would this thinking person would be in a position to use scripture and intelligence to better understand the biblical view of sin and humans. Not least to resolve the question as to if it is possible to be a human and without sin. And from there to springboard to the question whether one can retain ones individuality as a free moral agent yet be without sin (human or not).

Jesus is the key to understanding not only the OP but the very nature of sin and perfection so biblically acknowledgjng that "all earthly humans, besides Jesus, are sinners" is the first clue to finding the anwser to the question in OP of this thread.


I hope that answered your question,


JW

I honestly see your digs, citing "critical thinking' and 'intelligent', as nothing more than ad hominem attacks. Okay, back to the meat and potatoes...

If you go back the OP, you see I first stated:

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why? (I then lay out 2 points as to why).

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment. <-- "27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful."
2) You will not mourn for any of your unchosen loved ones. <- Unless you admit mourning exists in Heaven, which looks to contradict a utopian blissful realm.

So please stop with the whole Jesus bit A 'critical thinker' would know what I mean, and not instead harp on erroneous technicalities, for which we could debate infinitely. Your response was nothing more than a red herring. Shame on me for chasing it....

So..... Are you going to answer the question --- (modified just for you)?

(from OP): Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena. Humans (besides Jesus), are deemed perpetual sinners. Thus, if God must change all, (besides Jesus), for whom He elects, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

[POI]

I suggest we don't let him get away with it. Even having to apologise and delete a paragraph is a win for him, if he has managed a derail from 'at least talking about humans and their getting into heaven. Reel him in.

Yes, I will no longer entertain the red herring

[otseng]

Well then someone with critical thinking skills would logically ask (this is where the skill comes in ..) , "if one acknowledges "all earthly humans, besides Jesus, are sinners" - what was different about the human Jesus ?". This would lead an intelligent person on an search for relevant scriptures and via that, would this thinking person would be in a position to use scripture and intelligence to better understand the biblical view of sin and humans. Not least to resolve the question as to if it is possible to be a human and without sin. And from there to springboard to the question whether one can retain ones individuality as a free moral agent yet be without sin (human or not).

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[JehovahsWitness]

Well then someone with critical thinking skills would logically ask (this is where the skill comes in ..) , "if one acknowledges "all earthly humans, besides Jesus, are sinners" - what was different about the human Jesus ?". This would lead an intelligent person on an search for relevant scriptures and via that, would this thinking person would be in a position to use scripture and intelligence to better understand the biblical view of sin and humans. Not least to resolve the question as to if it is possible to be a human and without sin. And from there to springboard to the question whether one can retain ones individuality as a free moral agent yet be without sin (human or not).

I actually think this is fair, and my answer to the question would be, you would have to choose to be otherwise. This is my answer to the age-old question of the rebuilt ship, gradually replaced with parts from another ship until it is entirely the other ship. My snarky answer to my philosophy professor was that it's the new ship because every part was replaced, including the nameplate.

But that was a definitional answer. The real answer, I think, is that it doesn't matter whether the ship is the Enterprise-D or the Yosemite because it's just a ship. It doesn't have an identity but what we assign to it.

But a person? Well that does matter. You can't just take me out of my seat and plop down another person and claim he's me. But if I say, I don't want this particular bit of me, this is a tumour, cut it out, well, if I made the choice, then perhaps there's enough of a connection there, even if that tumour is in my brain and influences my consciousness. If somebody else removes or alters my consciousness against my will, I might not still be me. If I ask, or do it myself, then perhaps.

I'm not sure I understand your point, but I suspect you are at least conscious of a central question, namely: What makes a person a person? Yo cant say a particular thing would change a person from being themselves if you don't first define what makes a person themselves.

Their body? Free will? A cancer? An addiction ? Their memories? Their strengths? Their faults?

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you.

How can anyone claim to be discussing the OP without defining the central terms therein: what makes you you?


JW

[POI]

How can anyone claim to be discussing the OP without defining the central terms therein: what makes you you?

Fact: The Bible states you are a sinner. By you, I mean you --> (JW).
Fact: This means you are unable to be without any sin.
Fact: If you were able to no longer sin at all, you would no longer be you; since you are a sinner.

Is this enough, or do we need to explore more?

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena. Humans, (except Jesus), are deemed perpetual sinners. Thus, if God must change all, for whom He elects, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?