Why believe in God at all?

[nobspeople]

The obvious, selfish answer is 'to get into heaven'. But why else? Why should one believe in god? A god that plays aloof, many times allows the bed to prosper while the good suffer; a god that can create the whole of everything yet needs your money for his churches and spreading his word; a god that allowed the whole species to fall into sin right off the bat; a god that required himself/his son/himself to live and 'die' as a sacrifice to cover the sins of his creation - sins which he allowed; a god that allows 'wolves' into his flock to guide his 'sheep'; a god that won't allow himself to be proven and, instead, relies on faith - faith of flawed creatures - then allows eternal damnation (again, according to some) for not having enough faith; a god that allows his own disciples to argue amongst themselves over, many times, small, ambiguous things; a god that couldn't even write his own story; a god that seems to favor some over others; a god that can't be fully understood. And so on.
What benefits, outside of heaven, does God give that no one or nothing else gives?

[TRANSPONDER]

Well, it appears (yet again) that the reason to beleive in a god at all (never mind 'which one') is again 'Who made everything, then?'

As I often find, Cosmic Origins is believed by Theists to be the unassailable evidence for a Creator-

It isn't - not any more. The analogy with parents is unsound. We know the process of creating offspring and can know (as the default hypothesis) that it is how a person came to be, even if we don't know the parents.

That is not the case with Cosmic origins. The belief that a god is the origin of everything is no more than a human intuitive placeholder in the gap in our knowledge. It is no longer a Given that Cosmic origins has to be proof of 'God'.

And (this is so often where theist apologetics get bogged down in Faith -claims) even if it was, which god are we talking about?

Hint - 'there is only one God' only kicks the can down the road. If there is only One God - 'which one is that, and why?'

cue - 'the Bible tells us. The validity and reliability of the Bible, and more than that, of the NT, and specifically the Resurrection - claim is what it is really all about, even if we get to Cosmic Origins (or start with them) as basic evidence for a god.

[JehovahsWitness]

Biblically there is.

How so? Many of the biblical predictions are much like Nostradomus's predictions in that they are worded so vaguely or are so generic they can be interpreted to mean just about anything.

I dont know much about the predictions of Nostradomus I do know my bible. The composite sign of the end can apply to no other "generation" but that if the year 1914.



JW



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[nobspeople]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

What benefits, outside of heaven, does God give that no one or nothing else gives?

One common thing I've encountered in debating religious people over the years and asking why they believe that gods exist, is that they feel a god or a creator is needed to justify the position that humans are special and are here for a reason. That there is a purpose for our existence beyond just having evolved from earlier primates. They cannot accept that a branch of creatures developed a large, complex and capable brain well beyond any other living things (so far), and opposable thumbs (among other things), and that these evolutionary developments are what has allowed us to accomplish what we have as humans in comparison to all other animals.

Humans are a very recent member of the animal kingdom, appearing after nearly 4 billion years of life with about 1 billion of that including multicellular life, 180 million years of mammals, and 55 million years of primates. The earliest Homo sapien fossils discovered so far (in Morocco) are only about 0.3 million years old, the first human civilizations appeared around 10,000 years ago, and organized written language had to wait another roughly 5000 more years to about 5200 years ago when cuneiform scripts appeared. The most popular monotheist religious texts and associated religions are only about 3000 years old or less (Islam only 1400 years old).

How are humans "special" creations within this life on Earth scenario and timeline, and why did it take so long for us to appear? Evolution answers the latter question very well, but the former seems to require belief in a god being as a creator who decided only recently to place us on this planet. So for those who have a need to believe that humans are special and are here for a higher purpose, a god being provides that benefit.

This is a good point - one that explains probably 99% of the reason why gods are created. And I get it: it's nice to think there's someone 'more than me' that has my best interest in mind (to a degree at least).
But I wonder, why does it take a creation of a god to 'feel special'? Why can't people simply look at their life and the life around them and feel special that way?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 1213 in post #27]

Firstly, heaven or eternal life cant be earned.

Some sects of your religion beg to differ.

Even if I would fear it, there is nothing I could do to prevent it.

Doesn't mean you still don't fear it.

Secondly, Bible tells basically that hell is for cowards:

The bible 'says' a lot of things. I have yet to see a talking, burning bush that's not consumed. Have you?

If person "goes with God" because of fear, he should learn what the Bible tells, otherwise there is probably a big disappointment in the end.

Opinion noted. That doesn't stop the FACT that christianity teaches not only to fear God, but fear going to Hell. And that doesn't mean you didn't, at one point, fear God.

if I would reject Him, I think I would also lose a lot,

Which is a form of fear. It's good that you admitted it.

[TRANSPONDER]

Why should one believe in god?

Here's my current take... I have found, that many Christians believe in god for one ultimate reason. They feel they have, or do experience his presence. Christians will contest a 'witness of the holy spirit'. And because of this/these experience(s), they will defend all comers, who bring up topics, for which they will feel they need to defend.

It's really not much different then having a staunch democrat defend their position against republicans. No amount of debate will change their current stance, to immediately become a republican. Maybe much over time, but not immediately anyways.... Core beliefs usually take time to deviate. I used to be a Christian. It took a long time to no longer believe.

I also used to be more of a democrat. But now, I'm more independent... Religion and politics are emotional topics, and sometimes necessitate some levels of cognitive dissonance

Further, many did not reason their way into belief in god. Hence, it stands to reason, they cannot be reasoned out of their faith -- (pun intended).

As William Lang Craig has pointed out, on more than one occasion... (Paraphrased) "If it should turn out that all the evidence available to me controverts the testimony of the living Christ, I will still believe." This is because he truly feels he communicates, or at least has had experience(s) from 'god'. Which begs a follow up question.....

How do you know it is the "Holy Spirit" for which you are communicating?

Doesn't surprise me in the least. I have a Theory that, while evidence (suitably fiddled) might have been used to convince someone of the Belief, if they weren't raised that way, once they have been immersed in Faith, evidence counts for nothing, except to be fiddled to:

(a) confirm the Faith;

(b) try to persuade others.

Getting at the truth through evidence isn't the name of the game, because they Know the Truth already, through Faith, and even lies and deception are totally fine so long as they do (a) and (b).

My rational mind is quite staggered by statements such as 'if the Bible said 2+2 = 5, I wouldn't question that, but try to find a way to justify that claim'. (or something like that) but it doesn't surprise me, because valuing where the evidence leads rather than leading the evidence where the believer wants it to go has never been the purpose of religious apologetics.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #27]

Firstly, heaven or eternal life cant be earned.

Some sects of your religion beg to differ.

it is interesting, if they disagree with the Bible, why are they calling themselves Christian.

...Which is a form of fear. It's good that you admitted it.

Please offer some means to confirm your claim? Why do you need to make baseless claims of things you don't know?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 1213 in post #27]

Firstly, heaven or eternal life cant be earned.

Some sects of your religion beg to differ.

it is interesting, if they disagree with the Bible, why are they calling themselves Christian.

...Which is a form of fear. It's good that you admitted it.

Please offer some means to confirm your claim? Why do you need to make baseless claims of things you don't know?

As if this needs explaining
I know because you admitted to it. You said "if I would reject Him, I think I would also lose a lot,". This means you FEAR loosing a lot.
It's really rather simple - no need to put more meaning into than what you said. This isn't the bible, after all.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #33]

I dont know much about the predictions of Nostradomus I do know my bible. The composite sign of the end can apply to no other "generation" but that if the year 1914.

If that is taken literally, there are now precious few people around that were alive in 1914. According to this, only 19:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... ntenarians

But from the link in post 28 it appears that the meaning of the word "generation" is flexible and can change meaning so as to not conflict with the ever shrinking prospect of the end of all war, suffering, sickness, etc. happening while anyone born in 1914 or before is still alive. If that is the case, is 1914 still significant? Or will the method for arriving at that date (adding 2520 years to the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BC) be changed to extend it when the prediction fails to materialize?

It seems the goal posts always move on these kinds of predictions, via some kind of reinterpretation or recalculation that is only performed when the prediction fails, or gets so close to failing it is necessary to rescue it in some way. Do JWs genuinely believe that this magical new world will materialize in literally decades, or even less?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #33]

I dont know much about the predictions of Nostradomus I do know my bible. The composite sign of the end can apply to no other "generation" but that if the year 1914.

If that is taken literally, there are now precious few people around that were alive in 1914.

Did I say "who were alive in 1914"?







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[Diagoras]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #33]

I dont know much about the predictions of Nostradomus I do know my bible. The composite sign of the end can apply to no other "generation" but that if the year 1914.

If that is taken literally, there are now precious few people around that were alive in 1914.

Did I say "who were alive in 1914"?

No you didn't. That in itself is quite significant (to me), since it supports the claim that DrNoGods is making, vis:

that the meaning of the word "generation" is flexible and can change meaning so as to not conflict with the ever shrinking prospect of the end of all war, suffering, sickness, etc. happening while anyone born in 1914 or before is still alive.

How do you respond to that claim? The previously mentioned link (in post #28) provides a large amount of evidence directly from historical Jehovahs Witness' publications. There's a clear pattern of 'moving the goalposts' if you follow the timeline in even a fairly cursory manner.

For your claim about a "composite sign of the end" to have much weight, you must see that any talk about "generations" needs to be much more specific, and avoid the kind of obfuscation that typifies these kinds of apocalyptic predictions.