Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

[Willum]

Journal of Noah, day 12:

We’ve begun eating the dinosaurs to allay our hunger.

With my stomach thus calmed, I revisit the murder of Sephat and his family. I feel bad about killing Sephat, he worked forever building this boat, and was a good friend.
But what Satan commands, I must do.
Now lord Satan has asked me to write the story about how the world came to be and up to now…
I don’t know, I’m just going to make it up.

Topic for debate – God was defeated by Satan everywhere else, is there any way to show this isn’t also true? (According to the religion, that is...)
That Noah was one of the evil hosts that, like Satan in the Garden, or Satan wit Job, he simply instructed one of his people (Noah) to take the place of God's good family.

After all evil survived the flood...

Doesn't the concept that the person surviving the flood being evil and corruptible demonstrate the entire Abrahamic religion is false?

[JehovahsWitness]

How did evil survive the flood?

Evil is a concept, a notion. Evil did not "survive" the flood because you cannot drown "evil" any more than you can get a bucket of water and push "happiness" in it . Evil, which does not need oxygen, exists as long as there are free moral agents that choose to act wickedly.

HOW IS IT THAT WICKED /EVIL INDIVIDUALS CAME TO DOMINATE THE POST FLOOD WORLD?

BIBLICAL ANSWER*: Because satan the Devil, his wicked angelic forces were not drowned. The flood killed phyiscal land based humans and animals. Spirits would have remained uneffected.




Also, humans from the fall of Adam all passed on imperfection and death so righteous as they were, Noah and his family could not make perfect choices. The offspring of Shem, Ham and Japheth would in turn have to make their own choices regarding their worship and lifecourse. Indeed Canaan (Noahs grandson) make some very bad choices.

It was thus inevitable that evil would reemerge in the post-flood world since the very things that cause evil (imperfect humans and wicked spirits ) survived the flood. Satan was evidently right there to exploit those that, like Adam and Eve, made choices that served his (Satan's ) purpose.


JW


* This answer is based on an anyalysis of the biblical texts.

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #31]

So you are saying God is helpless in the face of Satan's efforts.
That is essentially what the OP is claiming, just a little more artfully.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #31]

So you are saying God is helpless in the face of Satan's efforts.

No I am not. I am saying that I believe God chose not to remove the root causes of evil at that time. Biblically there is nothing an omnipotent God is "helpless" to control.

[Purple Knight]

Anyone who voluntarily puts themself into that state, even once, is imo, an alcoholic in that they have the tendency, even if they never act on it again.

This makes as much sense as claiming that anyone who once took a puff off a cigarette is a chain smoker.

If I'd said drunk, yes, you'd have a valid analogy. If I'd said, someone was a drunk, in that they were habitually drunk, sure. I admit I've had the AA model forced on me because my family is a bunch of drunks. Most of what AA says is bollocks and evidence they're not helping anyone but I have noticed that some people are intensely drawn to drink and others are simply not. And there is evidence that some genes are associated with risk for alcoholism.

One thing that bears mentioning is that people in the ancient world don't get the full negative effect of any alcoholism they may have, because they simply can't get enough alcohol, or strong enough alcohol, to keep themselves falling-down-stupid-drunk all the time. It was only after alcohol began to be distilled into a stronger form that the full effects of alcoholism were apparent.

Evil is a concept, a notion. Evil did not "survive" the flood because you cannot drown "evil" any more than you can get a bucket of water and push "happiness" in it . Evil, which does not need oxygen, exists as long as there are free moral agents that choose to act wickedly.

I agree. It would be slightly more difficult to get evil suddenly, if the entire world were completely sinless, but not impossible. I've seen enough children who start to hit before they can talk to convince me that you can't drown evil anymore than you can drown math. You could drown every mathematician and everyone who knew of such things as numbers, but someone would just originate math all over again.

Even if you had two perfect parents, a child is its own person and it knows that 1) people can get hurt and 2) people have stuff it wants, so nothing is going to stop the child from putting two and two together and bashing someone else over the head and reaping the spoils. If people had the kind of blinders on that would prevent them from seeing that possibility, I would venture to say they would lack Biblical free will.

[brunumb]

I am saying that I believe God chose not to remove the root causes of evil at that time.

What an awesomely useless and incompetent deity.

[Tcg]

Biblically there is nothing an omnipotent God is "helpless" to control.

Perhaps, but in this sub-forum the Bible is not considered authoritative. What can you present outside of the Bible to support this claim?


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #31]

So you are saying God is helpless in the face of Satan's efforts.
That is essentially what the OP is claiming, just a little more artfully.

Are you asking a question about the God of the bible ie is this a biblical question based on the events presented in scripture? If so would you be interested in an anwser of my analysis of the content of same the text you have referred to in this subforum?

Clarification appreciated,


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

I agree. It would be slightly more difficult to get evil suddenly, if the entire world were completely sinless, but not impossible. I've seen enough children who start to hit before they can talk to convince me that you can't drown evil anymore than you can drown math. You could drown every mathematician and everyone who knew of such things as numbers, but someone would just originate math all over again.

Well put. Maths is a language by which we interpret the order of things around us, thus as a concept is always present or potentially so. Sin in the Judeo-Christian tradition is any action/thought out of harmony with our creator and so biblically, as long as there are free moral agents, also always potentially present . The difference being how theoretically could that be managed by a supreme ruler of the universe. He could choose to...

(a) allow it (sin) ie leave sinful individiauals to do as they please

(b) tolerate it temporarily to a certain extent intervening according to his pleasure or purpose
and/or ...

(c) eradicate anyone who starts or persists in sinful choices (resulting in a world free from any individuals whose bad choices would impact on others).

In short, I do not believe it is inevitable that we live in a world dominated by sinful individuals, indeed I believe the bible's* basic message is one day soon we will not.

NOTE According to the bible* (the principle religious text in the Christian tradition) the post edenic world has NEVER been "sinless". I am not presenting this analysis as authorative, (and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum)..

* : I do believe it is permissible to mention/refer to the bible in this subforum called "Christianity and Apologetic" but bow to moderator direction if I have misunderstood the guidelines which I have read

[Tcg]

NOTE: I do believe it is permissible to mention the bible in this subforum"Christianity and Apologetic", so I will add according to the bible (the principle religious text in the Christian tradition) the post edenic world has NEVER been "sinless"

Of course it is permissible to mention the bible in this sub-forum. The Bible however is not considered authoritative here. If you intend to add an argument that is considered authoritative here, you'll need to provide something more than and other than the Bible.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

Biblically there is nothing an omnipotent God is "helpless" to control.

Perhaps, but in this sub-forum the Bible is not considered authoritative. What can you present outside of the Bible to support this claim?


Tcg

Let me rephrase: LOGICALLY (based on the dictionary definition of the word) there can be nothing an omnipotent God is "helpless" to control.

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #31]

So you are saying God is helpless in the face of Satan's efforts.

So no I am not argung God is "helpless" before Satan (but I await clarification as to whether the reference to "Satan" is a biblical one so I can see if I feel free to also refer to the bible to develop my answer).


JW