Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[William]

[Replying to POI in post #100]

I think placing a demonic shadow on natural occurrence is the problem.
I think having the view that there is good and evil is why demonic shadowing occurs.

In that, the biblical god [BG] is characterized [through his behavior] as the main Demon but this wasn't so noticeable back in the olden days of the ancients who created the story which later found its way into an official book-form. Nature was seen as the enemy out to kill us - and also became a powerful demon...

As we have reached this biblically unexpected state of human development where we can unpack a lot of understanding as to cause and effect - and do so quickly - we see it more as a case of humanity jumping at its own shadows - and the experience of pain and suffering being a case of punishment rather than simply something we could just deal with as best as possible within the given circumstances...individual human emotion requires individual human control so as not to be making demons out of volcanoes - even though it is very tempting to do so.

Human morals can then present in more realistic ways than how the ancients went about telling it.

[JehovahsWitness]

If yes, then you have a contradiction in direct relation to the JW definition of "Paradise'.....If no, ...

If no WHAT!? Try and finish the thought in english words (complete sentences would be appreciated) If no....WHAT?! What in your opinion do animals changing or adapting to their environment have to do with them being "evil"? And how would the above contradict the published information provided on the official website of Jehovahs Witnesses.

I cannot address your point until I see what your point is.



JW

[POI]

If yes, then you have a contradiction in direct relation to the JW definition of "Paradise'.....If no, ...

What about the part you 'chopped away' does not make sense to you? Again, here is the part you chopped away in red....

If no, then please explain why all creatures will no longer follow their current activities related to predation/other?


I have issued a (yes or no) question. Do you not understand the question? If not, then please allow me to re-issue the same question, in differing words, and hopefully it will sink in for you.

Will animals continue to attack, maul, and/or kill other animals/humans in heaven? Yes or no?

If yes, this raises contradiction, as it relates to assertion(s) from JW.org about "Paradise". (We can then discuss).

If no, why exactly will animals no longer attack, maul, or kill other animals/humans in "Paradise"? Further, why where they allowed to do so prior to the 'fall' if there was no suffering at this time?

Try and finish the thought in english words (complete sentences would be appreciated)

My English is quite adequate. Maybe it's your comprehension which needs a little work?

If no....WHAT?! What in your opinion do animals changing or adapting to their environment have to do with them being "evil"?

The raised concern here is that it is of the opinion of JW.org, ergo your opinion, that attacking, mauling, or killing of other animals/humans in "Paradise" is not permitted.

And how would the above contradict the published information provided on the official website of Jehovahs Witnesses.

Hamster wheel... Post #88 (rinse/repeat):

(https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... s-beliefs/) (i.e.)

"Evil and suffering. These began when one of Gods angels rebelled. (John 8:44) This angel, who after his rebellion was called "Satan" and "Devil," persuaded the first human couple to join him, and the consequences have been disastrous for their descendants. (Genesis 3:1-6; Romans 5:12) In order to settle the moral issues raised by Satan, God has allowed evil and suffering, but He will not permit them to continue forever."

Your problem remains as follows. According to JW's, earth was once void of 'evil and suffering'. If you reconcile the science, that animals can feel pain and suffer, then you have a big problem. This is also why Dr. Craig desperately tries to hand-wave away this issue with the argument for 3rd order pain.

Since 'suffering' or 'natural evil' existed before the 'creation' of man, then the Bible is objectively wrong. Unless you now wish to deny 'science', like Dr. Craig?

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #100]

I think placing a demonic shadow on natural occurrence is the problem.
I think having the view that there is good and evil is why demonic shadowing occurs.

In that, the biblical god [BG] is characterized [through his behavior] as the main Demon but this wasn't so noticeable back in the olden days of the ancients who created the story which later found its way into an official book-form. Nature was seen as the enemy out to kill us - and also became a powerful demon...

As we have reached this biblically unexpected state of human development where we can unpack a lot of understanding as to cause and effect - and do so quickly - we see it more as a case of humanity jumping at its own shadows - and the experience of pain and suffering being a case of punishment rather than simply something we could just deal with as best as possible within the given circumstances...individual human emotion requires individual human control so as not to be making demons out of volcanoes - even though it is very tempting to do so.

Human morals can then present in more realistic ways than how the ancients went about telling it.

I'll try to address this post when I have more time to ponder...

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes but animals following their instinct are not evil .


Evil is a moral judgement based on intellectual choice. An animal cannot make such a choice so animals cannot be biblically judged as "evil" ... can you understand this even if you personally disagree ?

If animals have grown agressive, they are only doing what their instincts push them to do to survive. Its only a little sad given they should not have been forced i to such a position. It puts me in mind of what I read somewhere about snakes, even poisonous ones. The expert explained that given the chance, when confronted with a human they will avoid confrontation.; only striking when they feel cornered. He pointed out that many snake bites happen because someone inadvertently steps on them.

In short, animals have an incredible capacity to adapt to their environment and will no doubt do so in the paradise. If you think any of this makes them "evil", biblically you are mistaken.


JW

[POI]

Thank you for engaging!

Yes

"Yes" to what exactly??

To this question --> Will animals continue to attack, maul, and/or kill other animals/humans in Paradise? Yes or no?

animals following their instinct are not evil .

Noted, thank you.

Evil is a moral judgement based on intellectual choice. An animal cannot make such a choice so animals cannot be biblically judged as "evil" ... can you understand this even if you personally disagree ?

Sure, but I'm talking about what God ergo JW's ergo you deem 'evil'. Sure, I would agree (all) animals do what it's 'instinct's' tell them.' I guess the (all animals) aspect of things could be debated ad nauseam; both for or aganist. But this is not the crux of my assessment here.... Moving forward...

- JW.org asserts that no suffering existed before 'the fall'.
- JW.org asserts that JW's are not antiscience.
- Science has discovered fossils, which demonstrate both death and injury which are older than any human.

Hence, what objection(s) must you raise, to combat against the given apparent contradiction(s)? (i.e.):

1. JW.org asserts no suffering occurred before "the fall". However, evidence suggests death and (suffering) occurred before 'the fall'.

2. JW.org asserts humans will ultimately live with all animals in Paradise. If animals will no longer attack, due to instinct, this must mean God deems it 'better' for them to no longer attack. Which means God deems animal attacks as at least 'less-than-ideal' - which may be sugarcoating the real term you wish to instead avoid. "Paradise" would have a strange definition, if mauling, attacks, and death occurred within it, right?

So, what objection do you wish to raise?

- Animals felt no pain in injury before the fall?
- Animals enjoyed all injury and/or experiences of their own deaths?
- The fossil record is incorrect?
etc etc etc etc................?

WLC has opted to state that animals do not experience 3rd order pain. This is his 'best' argument. What is yours?

If animals have grown agressive, they are only doing what their instincts push them to do to survive. Its only a little sad given they should not have been forced i to such a position. It puts me in mind of what I read somewhere about snakes, even poisonous ones. The expert explained that given the chance, when confronted with a human they will avoid confrontation.; only striking when they feel cornered. He pointed out that many snake bites happen because someone inadvertently steps on them.

This does not satisfy the given contradiction. "Aggression" took place before the 'fall of man". Again, fossils.

Please try a different argument.

[JehovahsWitness]

Which means God deems animal attacks as at least 'less-than-ideal' - which may be sugarcoating the real term you wish to instead avoid.

What is the "real" term you are referring to ? And what evidence do you have to support such a classification ?




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To learn more please go to other posts related to...

.THE PURPOSE OF LIFE, ANIMALS and ... CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

[POI]

Which means God deems animal attacks as at least 'less-than-ideal' - which may be sugarcoating the real term you wish to instead avoid.

What is the "real" term you are referring to ? And it is "real" in what sense?




JW

I must ask, are you picking up what I'm putt'n down, and opting to instead play games by asking erroneous questions, or to throw off the scent? Or, are you really confused about my position, (that JW is in direct violation of logic), as it pertains to "the fall"?

I mean, I have no problem answering questions, but I feel my current stance is clear.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #100]
I think placing a demonic shadow on natural occurrence is the problem.

Noted.

I think having the view that there is good and evil is why demonic shadowing occurs.

Noted.

In that, the biblical god [BG] is characterized [through his behavior] as the main Demon but this wasn't so noticeable back in the olden days of the ancients who created the story which later found its way into an official book-form. Nature was seen as the enemy out to kill us - and also became a powerful demon...

Yes, likely because they did not understand how the world actually worked. Mental illness was "evil spirits". Human deformities were punishment from some prior moral action. Plagues were thought to be brought on by (fill-in-the-blank). etc etc etc....... Noted.

As we have reached this biblically unexpected state of human development where we can unpack a lot of understanding as to cause and effect - and do so quickly - we see it more as a case of humanity jumping at its own shadows - and the experience of pain and suffering being a case of punishment rather than simply something we could just deal with as best as possible within the given circumstances...individual human emotion requires individual human control so as not to be making demons out of volcanoes - even though it is very tempting to do so.

Sure, but the unfortunate 'reality', for Christians, is they cannot reject the OT; as much as they might sometimes want to The pages have been written and cemented into history; and Christians cannot change what it says. This is part of the reason Christians now need professional apologists. In part, they exist to sometimes 'spin' the text to 'comport/align' with later (otherwise conflicting) human discovery. (i.e.) Genesis, Exodus, etc.... Apologists sometimes act as 'lead council' for the 'defendant' --> "god". This is exactly WHY I opted not to engage further with 'Theophile'. His 'spin' of the OT, leaves the goalposts perpetually moving.

God beliefs used to be more-so plural or polytheistic. --- There was a bonafide sun god, volcano god, etc etc etc... Later, the concept morphed more-so into monotheism, and eventually to what we have now --- "Christianity" and other flavors. The more we learn, the more we morph.

However, the Christian is STUCK with the Bible. And "stuck" they are The Bible states that no suffering existed before the fall. Well, this is why WLC desperately tries to argue for the animal's lack in 3rd order pain. Common sense issues a complete fail here. But he tries and we watch, as we skeptics face-palm, shrug our shoulders, and keep moving along....

I'm quite familiar with the topic of 'morality'. I agree with you, (paraphrased) --- "human emotion requires the making of demons out of volcanoes".

Do I think 'natural evil' exists? Well, no. But I am addressing the Christians here. (i.e.)

Right now, JW is in quite bit of a little pickle....

Let's all stay tuned as to whether he can make his way out, or if he again chooses to ignore.

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes but animals following their instinct are not evil .


Evil is a moral judgement based on intellectual choice. An animal cannot make such a choice so animals cannot be biblically judged as "evil" ... can you understand this even if you personally disagree ?

If animals have grown agressive, they are only doing what their instincts push them to do to survive. Its only a little sad given they should not have been forced i to such a position. It puts me in mind of what I read somewhere about snakes, even poisonous ones. The expert explained that given the chance, when confronted with a human they will avoid confrontation.; only striking when they feel cornered. He pointed out that many snake bites happen because someone inadvertently steps on them.

In short, animals have an incredible capacity to adapt to their environment and will no doubt do so in the paradise. If you think any of this makes them "evil", biblically you are mistaken.


JW

Well, I have to agree. And didn't I make this point before? Animals are not evil. At worst, badly treated or badly trained, either by their pack or their owners. That being so, why would God allow His Creation to be destroyed along with humans just because of what a couple of humans did?